*Archive?*Richard Cox-Help pls-Think its a brick wall maybe?

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Stormâ„¢
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*Archive?*Richard Cox-Help pls-Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by Stormâ„¢ »

OK

Its a bit complicated but isnt it always.

Great great Grandfather is Thomas COX.

25th of December 1855 he marries Jane LANCASTER in St Martins Birmingham UK in St Pauls Chapel.

I have purchased their marriage certificate and have it here in my grubby hands.

Thomas lives at time of marriage in Staniforth St but it could also be Stainforth St, or Stamforth St and in Birmingham I have found all of these streets which is not helpful is it lol. Saying that the only Stamforth I can find on the census' seems to have only policemen living in it. And Thomas was not a policeman.

On the marriage certificate are witnesses - one of which is Mary Ann COX. Thomas is 22 at marriage and so is born in 1833. His father on the certificate is named as "Richard COX".

Both father and son have the same occupation - Brass Founder.

The Marriage is conducted by C. B. HUTCHINSON but could be HUTCHINSEN, HATCHINSEN.

Janes Father is John LANCASTER and he is a carpenter by trade.

Ok the problems

Thomas although 22 and getting married to Jane is a Widower already. I cannot isolate who he married before Jane. If I could perhaps I could order that certificate and maybe find Richard easier, but I doubt it.

There seems to be no way of getting back further unless I can find out who this Richard Cox is. And here in lies the main problem. There are two Richards that it could be and perhaps a third. Each Richard has a child called Thomas. Each family has a child called Mary Ann (the witness) however the two Richards are. . .

Richard COX - married to Sarah. Found them from start to finish on every census. They have a son called Thomas in 1832. And they have a daughter called Mary Ann Cox. (the possible witness for the wedding in 1855. But she would only be 8 and I have been reliably informed that she would be too young to be used as a witness. So is this my family. The Thomas in this family is a brass founder (which is a good match) in 1851. However the marriage certificate states occupation of father - Brass Founder. This families father (Richard) is a Brick Layer in 1841 with surname Cocks and in every other census he is a labourer until his death in 1873. In 1841 they live at Little Inklies but in 1851 and thereafter they live at 113 Hill St and never move. So this family are a possible but seem not to match on a few counts.

Richard COX - marries a Mary (unknown nee name). Now these I can find but without Richard. I can trace her through the census details, and she lives with her family, becoming the head of the family and stating herself as widow. Thomas in her household is the right age also b. 1833. However we last see her Thomas living with her in 1851 at 1 court N013 Weaman Row. He is 17 and is a strip caster. The next Census he is not living with her. This families Thomas does have a sister Mary Ann COX and she would be at the time of the wedding 24 years old, so would be a better option for the witness. But it could also be Thomas' mother. So two options for the witness Mary Ann COX in this family.

Thomas gets married 4 years after the 1851 census and is the head of his own household and living with his Jane. His occupation is Brass caster in his own household.

I have searched this to death and posted roughly the same question around the internet. No definitive answer has been forthcoming.

There are many Richard COX's but only around 5 with a Thomas as a son. Only 2 have a Thomas of around the right age and only 1 with a Thomas b. 1833. I really do not know what else I can do. And as this branch of my tree is of the most interest to me I really need to get further with it. My gut feeling is that Richard and Sarah are not part of my family. For whatever reason I feel that this mysterious Mary and Richard are mine. Although it could well be an as yet undiscovered Richard. I have restricted my search to Warwickshire so, as with another branch of my tree, I could well find that they have moved in to Birmingham around this time. Like my WINGFIELDS did when they moved in from Sheffield.

I have traced several possible first wives for Thomas and cross referenced deaths. he was b. 1833 so he was 18 in 1851 and was married to Jane LANCASTER in 1855. Assuming a year to get to know each other, that leaves a window of 1851 to 1854, 3 years. In that time there are about 5 possible women he could have married. The names I have are, 16 339, Jane Frances GROSVENOR, Ann Crawford PRICE, Catherine RODDY, or Jane WOOD. Trouble is these all seem to live on to a fair age. So I have missed some.

Well I think thats an epic post and for that I am sorry. But the more you know the less rummaging needed. If there is anything I can add let me know.

Many Thanks, a COX weary researcher, and I have SMITHS in another close branch to do yet - cant wait for that :?
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grangers14
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by grangers14 »

Whats the other witnesses name?
Jo :)
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by Stormâ„¢ »

Hi

the other witness name is William LANCASTER :-)
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by rockyfowler »

1851
COX, Richard Head Married M 48 1803 Labourer
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Sarah Married F 46 1805
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Richard Son Unmarried M 23 1828 Brass Founder
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Thomas Son Unmarried M 19 1832 Brass Founder
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, John Son Unmarried M 16 1835 Brass Founder
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Edward Son M 14 1837 Brass Founder
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Joseph Son M 12 1839 Brass Founder
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Benjamin Son M 9 1842 Scholar
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Samuel Son M 7 1844 Scholar
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Mary A Daughter F 4 1847 Scholar
Warwickshire


113, Hill Street, Birmingham County:
Warwickshire
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by rockyfowler »

1861
COX, Thomas Head Married M 27 1834 Brass Caster
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Jane Wife Married F 25 1836 Percussion Cap Maker
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, William Son M 4 1857
Aston
Warwickshire
COX, Thomas Son M 0 (6M) 1861
Aston
Warwickshire


44, Lister Street, Aston, Birmingham County:
Warwickshire
“As I learned from growing up, you don’t mess with your grandmother.” — Prince William
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by Stormâ„¢ »

Yup Rocky, thats the Sarah and Richard I mention in my post above. One of the potential Richards. Your second post is my family. Its his father and mother I am trying to find. I have Thomas and Jane all the way through, except Thomas, when he is a youngster. It infuriating. And what makes it worse is that your first post, Their childrens births and marriage, all occur in St Martins, which is the Parish my Thomas and Jane marry in.SO it looks a good match if not near perfect.

BUT - Richard in that family is not a Brass Founder - he is a labourer. And mine is a brass founder. according to the marriage certificate. :(
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by grangers14 »

The 1861 census also has Susannah Knowles, lodger, W, 65, Japan Polisher, birmingham.

Is she anything to do with the family?
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by Stormâ„¢ »

Susannah Knowles - not sure if she is anything to do with the family if I am honest.

The other possible Richard that I mention is this one.

Cox 1851 Census HO107/2057/338/7

Address - 1 court, No:13 Weaman Row, Birmingham

COX, Mary - Head - Widow - F - 47 b. 1804
COX, Sarah - Dau - f - 24 b. 1827 - Dress Maker
COX, Mary Ann - Dau - f - 20 b 1831 - Pearl Grinder - POSSIBLE WITNESS for my Thomas
COX, John - Son - m - 19 b. 1832 - Stoker
COX, Thomas - son - m - 17 b. 1834 Strip Caster
COX, David - son - m - 7 b. 1844 Spoon Buffer
PERRY, John - Lodger - Widower - m- 48 - Spoon Polisher

The lodger Susannah may be as a result of what my Thomas' mother taught him. To take in Lodgers for extra monies???

Also in this alternate family her Richard is dead by 1841. I cannot find a death for her Richard. So it makes it harder.
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by grangers14 »

One of the others I had looked at was
1841. Northwood Street?, Birmingham
Mary Cox, 40, Not born County
Richard, 15, Ingot caster app
Sarah, 15, Button m
John, 10, hinge filer
Thomas, 8, hinge filer
William, 3
All others born County

Just thought with son being Richard?

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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by Stormâ„¢ »

Yup, I think this is the 1841 census for the 1851 Mary I just put up. Its odd because in 1841 she does not mention Mary Ann for the census. And yet in 1851 she has a daughter Mary Ann. Now this either means she forgot, the census taker omitted Mary Ann in 1841 all together or this is a different Mary with children of the same names and matching ages. Personally I think this 1841 census family you have is the same as my 1851 lot.

I think these are the same family and the favourite for my family? Oh btw the Not Born county is dubious. Thats the transcript but looking at the original and other sources she was *not in county* at the time of the census. Which helps with the fact that the Mary's ages are a little off from 1841 to 1851. Because whoever gave the census info would have had to guess at their mothers age.

1841. Northwood Street?, Birmingham
Mary Cox, 40, Not born County
Richard, 15, Ingot caster app
Sarah, 15, Button m
John, 10, hinge filer
Thomas, 8, hinge filer
William, 3
All others born County

Address - 1 court, No:13 Weaman Row, Birmingham

COX, Mary - Head - Widow - F - 47 b. 1804
COX, Sarah - Dau - f - 24 b. 1827 - Dress Maker
COX, Mary Ann - Dau - f - 20 b 1831 - Pearl Grinder - POSSIBLE WITNESS for my Thomas
COX, John - Son - m - 19 b. 1832 - Stoker
COX, Thomas - son - m - 17 b. 1834 Strip Caster
COX, David - son - m - 7 b. 1844 Spoon Buffer
PERRY, John - Lodger - Widower - m- 48 - Spoon Polisher
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by snoopysue »

In 1841 the ages were supposed to round down to the nearest five years, although this was'nt always done, in some cases it was rounded up, and of course people didn't always know who old they were.

I have a few people who are missing on census's who I've never located, I've also very young children being with relatives, and not with their living parents. There are many reasons why they may not, on the face of it be on the census.
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by grangers14 »

It is confusing! :roll:

Theres also
1841. Suffolk Street, St Thomas Birmingham
Mary Ann Cox, 40 Publican
Mary Ann, 15,
William, Brass F app
Sarah, 10,
Thomas, 10,
John, 5,
Fanny, 2
All born in County
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by Stormâ„¢ »

grangers14 wrote:It is confusing! :roll:

Theres also
1841. Suffolk Street, St Thomas Birmingham
Mary Ann Cox, 40 Publican
Mary Ann, 15,
William, Brass F app
Sarah, 10,
Thomas, 10,
John, 5,
Fanny, 2
All born in County


I found this family yesterday, and also another final one, where the Head is Mary ann, she has a daughter called Mary Ann and she also has her youngest daughter Mary Ann lol.

However there is always the question, who did Thomas marry before he married Jane LANCASTER. I mean, a widower at 22 thats a first for me.
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by peterd »

can we try to find all the census for richard and jane as there might be a lead in the later ones ?
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Re: Richard Cox - Help pls - Think its a brick wall maybe?

Post by peterd »

1861
COX, Thomas Head Married M 27 1834 Brass Caster
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, Jane Wife Married F 25 1836 Percussion Cap Maker
Birmingham
Warwickshire
COX, William Son M 4 1857
Aston
Warwickshire
COX, Thomas Son M 0 (6M) 1861
Aston
Warwickshire


44, Lister Street, Aston, Birmingham County:
Warwickshire


any other coxs on the image before or after ?
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