Anyone know about East Surrey and Manchester Regiments WW1

[usignuolo]

I have found out that my grandfather died in 1918 in action in Flanders he was in the Manchester Regiment at the time. I know this is true as I have found his record with the War Graves Commission who confirm that he served with the 1st/7th Battalion, Manchester Regiment. This is a bit puzzling as we are a London family from Islington then in Middlesex and we have no Northern ancestors that I am aware of. His paternal ancestors were born and lived in Holland although British subjects and his maternal ancestors were Swiss.

My brother who is doing the research has found a record which says he "was attached to the Manchester Regiment (formerly the 3175 East Surrey Regiment) 1/7th Battalion". At the time he enlisted he was living in Streatham which would make the East Surrey an obvious choice. Clearly there is some sort of transcription error as there is no such thing as the 3175 East Surrey Regiment. It should be ?

Nor can I find any record of it merging with the Manchester Regiment which seems unlikely. Can anyone who knows about these things throw any light on it? I have looked up Manchester Regiment records and see there were indeed some Londoners in the regiment in WW1. Was this an arbitrary allocation as the Regiments ran short of local men? . Could my grandfather have been transferred from the East Surrey to the Manchester Regiment?

[grangers14]

This will be better in the Military section. You will get more help.
I will move it for you in a mo.
Jo

[MarkCDodd]

Give us his name and year of birth and we can help a bit more.

[usignuolo]

My grandfather was called Wilfrid (sometimes spelt Wilfred although Wilfrid is the correct version) Henry Jackson. He was born in Islington in North London in 1881. He moved to Streatham in south east London, after his marriage in around 1904. I don't know when he enlisted but I know it was in the East Surrey Regiment and his number was 3175.

At some stage he transferred, or was transferred, into the Manchester Regiment. Then his number became 42 737. I don't know when this was and I have no idea why as we have no northern connections at all. First he was in their 2/10 Btn and then in 1/7 Btn. He was killed in action on 28 March 1918 in Flanders. He has a memorial with the rest of 1/7 Btn in Arras where according to the War Graves Commission, he was 37 when he died and a Lance Corporal. He was actually 27.

I have looked up the National Roll on ancestry intending to buy the relevant record of his record, as it lets you see the relevant entries to decide which to buy, but could not find his record.

Any more information anyone can supply or suggest gratefully accepted.

[MarkCDodd]

His records are not available. They were amongst the 60% destroyed during WW2.

His Medal Card does not mention the Surrey Regiment.

I can see he enlisted in Surrey and may have originally been assigned to the Surrey Regiment but there is nothing stopping him being transferred to the Manchester Regiment.

It is based on numbers more than anything else.

You are originally assigned to the regiment associated with where you enlisted.

They do not take into consideration your place of birth, only place of enlistment, for your initial assignment.

Constant reshuffling of men meant that transfers between regiments were very common.

Ideally soldiers found themselves in a regiment associated with their home county.

A shortage of men and an uneven casualty rate meant some regiments needed replacements from wherever they were available.

[apowell]

Hi,

Given Wifreds age and his original Regimental Number 3175 I would think he was a Reservist or a Territorial Soldier prior to 1914 and was automatically recalled on the outbreak of war. Looking at his Medal Index Card it tells us he didn't serve overseas until 1916 onwards and only with the Manchester Regiment because he wasn't awarded the 1914/1915 Star medal.

I'm unable to confirm this 100% given that sadly his service records were destroyed but the two Battalions he served with Manchester Regiment 2/10 Btn and then in 1/7 Btn didn't serve in France until earliest February/March 1917.

The Manchester Regiment

Battalions of the Territorial Force

1/5th Battalion
August 1914 : in Bank Chambers, Wigan. Part of Manchester Brigade, East Lancashire Division. Moved to near Rochdale.
25 September 1914 : landed at Alexandria in Egypt.
6 May 1915 : landed on Gallipoli.
26 May 1915 : formation became 127th Brigade, 42nd (East Lancashire) Division.
28 December 1915 : evacuated from Gallipoli, landed on Mudros and proceeded to Egypt.
2March 1917 : landed Marseilles and proceeded to the Western Front.

1/7th Battalion
August 1914 : in Burlington Street, Manchester. Part of Manchester Brigade, East Lancashire Division.
Record same as 1/5th Bn.

1/9th Battalion
August 1914 : in Ashton-under-Lyne. Part of East Lancashire Brigade, East Lancashire Division. Moved to near Bury.
25 September 1914 : landed at Alexandria in Egypt.
10 May 1915 : landed on Gallipoli.
26 May 1915 : formation became 126th Brigade, 42nd (East Lancashire) Division.
Late December 1915 : evacuated from Gallipoli, landed on Mudros and proceeded to Egypt.
2March 1917 : landed Marseilles and proceeded to the Western Front.
19 February 1918 : transferred to 198th Brigade in 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division, absorbing 2/9th Bn and renamed as 9th Battalion.
April 1918 : reduced to cadre.
22 July 1918 : transferred to 199th Brigade in same Division. Absorbed 13th Bn, newly arrived from Salonika, on 13 August 1918.

1/10th Battalion
August 1914 : in Oldham. Part of East Lancashire Brigade, East Lancashire Division.
Record same as 1/9th Bn but remained in 126th Brigade from February 1918 onward.

The 42nd (East Lancashire) Division then remained on the Western Front and took part in the following engagements:

1918
The Battle of Bapaume*
The First Battle of Arras*
The Battle of the Ancre*
* the battles marked * are phases of the First Battles of the Somme 1918
The Battle of Albert**
The Second Battle of Bapaume**
** the battles marked ** are phases of the Second Battles of the Somme 1918
The Battle of the Canal du Nord^
The pursuit to the Selle^
^ the battles marked ^ are phases of the Battles of the Hindenburg Line
The Battle of the Selle, a phase of the Final Advance in Picardy

Phase: the First Battle of Arras, 28 March 1918

Third Army (Byng)
IV Corps (Harper)
41st Division
[u]42nd (East Lancashire) Division[/u]
62nd (2nd West Riding) Division
New Zealand Division
4th Brigade of 4th Australian Division.
V Corps (Fanshawe)
2nd Division
12th (Eastern) Division.
VI Corps (Haldane)
Guards Division
3rd Division
31st Division
2nd Canadian Division
97th Brigade of 32nd Division.
XVII Corps (Fergusson)
4th Division
15th (Scottish) Division.

Given all the information we have we can confirn he was sadly killed at the the First Battle of Arras, 28 March 1918:

If you google the above you can get lots of information on the Battle.

Regards
Adrian

[usignuolo]

Thank you everyone who replied with additional information. It is much appreciated.