ARC tbc - Grahams of Eaglesfield and earlier..

[Razzy]

So who is George Graham of Brigham who married Margaret 'Graham' of Cross Canonby on Feb 9th, 1800 in Brigham?
Maybe this is not the couple I need to find.
FHL parish records #1472080 (cross canonby) has them married.
There was no mention of either one being widowed on the parish record.
The nearest George Graham of Brigham (FHL #90573) I can find is christened Dec 13th, 1763 son of James Graham of Mosser.
Silly me, I had already sent back the Cross Canonby FHL film before I knew this, so I do not know if Margaret would have a maiden name or if it is 'Graham'; no mention who she is the daughter of neither in the marriage.
I cannot find a Margaret Graham being christened in Cross Canonby records.
There is an abnormal pause before George and Margaret start having children.
I then find a George Graham of Eaglesfield having children with 'Margaret'.
I am able to find children christened in 1815 (William) and 1819 (Eleanor).
Thomas Graham is defintely born in Eaglesfield to a George Graham.
Depending on the following Thomas is either born in 1813,; 1822; 1827.
I cannot find an Eaglesfield 1841 census on Ancestry Library edition mentioning a George; George and Margaret; or a Thomas.
On Thomas Grahams marriage certificate (district of Cockermouth) in 1857 he is a bachelor age 30.
His father George is a husbandman.
There is no mention of him being christened in Eaglesfield at any date.
Ok, so his mother had him christened elsewhere, maybe where her mother is. So where is this place?
So without knowing for sure who his mother is (maybe Margaret) I am unable to find this Thomas' christening.
In the 1851 census page 197 I have Thomas (born in Eaglesfield) as a farm servant in Crossthwaite and Borrowdale very close to where he was married (was working in Crosby and his future wife was working in Bothel).
There the enumerator or whomever he is asking says Thomas is 27 thereby pegging his birth @1822-24.
after two years of marriage in 1861 on the census and every ten years after that to 1881 (I cannot find either Thomas or his wife Eleanor in 1891) his birth year is 1813.
Always he is born in Eaglesfield but I am unable to find him baptised anywhere.
I have searched parish records in Aspatria, Dean, Dearham, Whitehaven (Saint James and Holy Trinity), Bromfield, Brigham, Cockermouth All Saints, Cross Canonby, Maryport, Gilcrux, Hayton, Crosby upon Eden, and Plumbland.
I have been able to find a George Graham of Stanwix being married to a Margaret Kirk of St. Marys (Carlisle) in Gretna Green in November 1813.
I have not been able to find a Thomas son of George Graham of Eaglesfield or Brigham being christened anywhere.
Other than that it is hard to come by a George Graham, husbandman in my searches.
So, in confirming the correct birthdate of Thomas is; where he was christened; in find out who his father George is; confirming his mothers identity, I can then start to move.
As it is, I have a brick wall.
Am I able to receive any help?
Thanks,
Razzy

[peterd]

this is extracted igi

GEORGE GRAHAM
MARGARET GRAHAM
Marriage: 09 FEB 1800 Crosscanonby, Cumberland


if you have the info on this marriage did you write the witnesses down ?

[peterd]

On Thomas Grahams marriage certificate (district of Cockermouth) in 1857 he is a bachelor age 30.
His father George is a husbandman.


who were the witnesses on this cert ?

so thomas b c 1827


so is this the last person your sure about on your tree if not post the detail of the person you know for definate are your last ancestors in this line pete

[Razzy]

Hi
Thanks for the interest already.
The witnesses to the marriage on Thomas and Eleanor nee Rogan
are James Thompson and Mary Ann Brisco.
The marriage certificate says they were married in the Register office John (R---iey[looks like three 'u's]) Taylor.
Yes, this is the last person I am absolutely sure of. I am not an expert. My ancestor was his son. On the death certificate my ancestor his parents were Thomas Graham and Eleanor Rogan.
By the way, I had accepted that Eleanors' father was indeed Daniel a blacksmith. I had found his wife Ann in later census' obviously without Eleanor; however I had another person help me and she brought to my attention that in 1841 census in Whitehaven Charles Rogan has Eleanor as his daughter and Ann as his wife. When we found Daniel he was not a blacksmith but a labourer. So I have some confusion, now.
When my ancestor (again a Thomas) married his first marriage was to Sarah Watson from Isel, Cumberland daughter of Robert and Eleanor Watson.
I finally was able to find them first in Aspatria Cumberland 1881 census with the first son John George born April 13th 1878 in Allerby. I was then able to find them in Durham, Northumberland in the 1891 census.
I again ordered the birth certificates from GRO and it is correct.
Eleanor Wilson born April 4th, 1882
Thomas, Robert, and Sarah.
At one point both the wife and daughter died (Sarahs'); the wife most likely when the next daughter Evelyn was born on May 13th, 1891on Long Row West Moor, R.S.(T/F [can't tell]) Longbenton.
He then remarried, cannot find that marriage certificate in Northumberland, Cumberland, or Dumfries and then in 1895 arrived in Canada.

After I find about the information on George, his wife, and Thomas' christening, I have to find what happened to John George and Eleanor- supposedly went to Australia or New Zealand, Thomas, and Robert. But first, George, his wife, and Thomas' christening.

[peterd]

right razzy try to break this down in to more managble bits


marriage certificate (district of Cockermouth) in 1857

Thomas and Eleanor Grahams (nee Rogan)

witness on marriage cert were James Thompson and Mary Ann Brisco

so Thomas Grahams in 1857 he is a bachelor age 30. His father George is a husbandman.

Eleanor father Daniel ? (By the way, I had accepted that Eleanors' father was indeed Daniel a blacksmith. I had found his wife Ann in later census' obviously without Eleanor;)

I had another person help me and she brought to my attention that in 1841 census in Whitehaven Charles Rogan has Eleanor as his daughter and Ann as his wife. When we found Daniel he was not a blacksmith but a labourer. So I have some confusion

I asume Eleanor father on wedding cert was daniel occupation blacksmith ?

so who where the children of thomas and eleanor above Razzy

after two years of marriage in 1861 on the census and every ten years after that to 1881 (I cannot find either Thomas or his wife Eleanor in 1891) his birth year is 1813.

Always he is born in Eaglesfield but I am unable to find him baptised anywhere He might not of been baptized ?






can we find these census any one please

if you have any of the census razzy on thomas and eleanor please post them

[mallosa]

I take it this is what you have Razzy?

1861: Allerby, Cumberland
Thomas Graham 48 Head M Coalminer born Eaglesfield, Cumberland
Eleanor Graham 30 Wife M born Hayton, Cumberland
Margaret Graham 3 (no rel given) born Allerby
Thomas Graham 1 (no rel given) born Allerby
William Graham 22 Boarder Woolen Spinner born Eaglesfield, Cumberland

[peterd]

william looks good as a poss brother, nephew ?

[Razzy]

Thanks for the interest again!
Yes, with a last name of Graham, I do wonder who this William is, I wish they were more precise back then.
It seems rather sterile, cold, and uninviting to just say 'boarder'.

1871 census is Allerby and Oughterside page six in the village of Allerby.

house #23
Thomas Graham 58
Eleanor 39
Margaret 13
Thomas 11
Annie 7
Mary Jane 4
infant (I'm guessing Charles)1 week

I was just shown a 1841 Cumberland census, St. Cuthberts Carlisle, District three English street page 5 & 6
Page 5 on the bottom right hand side has in the same house: (St. Cuthberts Lane)
Barbara something 65 Independant
Mary something 18 Drap Maker
George Graham 45 labourer
Margaret 35
page 6:
George 19 Moulder
Mary 15 Bobbie Spinner Cotton
John 9
Joseph 4
Robert 1

This is interesting but, depending on where I place Thomas' birth he could or could not fit in.
I have never ordered a Carlisle FHL parish record.
Has anyone else? This census is only here in case the George and wife is not the George and Margaret mentioned being married in Feb 9th, 1800
My Thomas who was 11 in the 1871 census said he was born in Maryport. However I find he is referred to being born in Aspatria after he is married, but I did not find him christened in either place.
I do have a Barbara born here in Canada before 1900.

Other than this I found a Cumberland 1841 Brigham Allerdale above Derwent census. On page 13 at the bottom right corner:
George Graham 65 Teacher
Thomas 25 (also a teacher?)
Mary Kirkpatrick 65 (Ind?)
Deborah Graham 60 (Ind?)

The house before them has :
Harry Graham 75 Ind
Francis White 35 no more information
Mary White 8 same

It seems far fetched to go from Husbandman in 1800 when 'a' George Graham was married to teacher in 1841 and back to husbandman in 1857 on Thomas' marriage.
There are no Deborahs' or Harrys' in my line

another 1841 census Upperby (close to Carlisle ) I don't know how to identify this page #.
I think the house is Harrey Grean (left page in the middle):
John Graham 45 I can't figure out the trade (Plummer?)
James 85 Ind.
George 45 Plummer?
Margaret 40
Again just in case the George and Margaret married in 1800 was not the same on Feb 9th, 1800

We do know that the 1841 census, (god bless them for having one) the enumerator would round up the ages 5 up or 5 down depending on his temperament.
Is there anything more that I can show or dig up this week that can be of help?
Maybe I should order Wigton and also Carlisle parish records.

Razzy

[peterd]

1871 census is Allerby and Oughterside page six in the village of Allerby.

house #23
Thomas Graham 58
Eleanor 39
Margaret 13
Thomas 11
Annie 7
Mary Jane 4
infant (I'm guessing Charles)1 week

this is the 1881 saying eleanor born ireland ?

1881 Allerby, Oughterside & Allerby, Cumberland

Thomas GRAHAM 69 Cumberland, Farm Labourer
Elenor GRAHAM 49 Ireland Farm Labourer
Mary Jane GRAHAM 14 Allerby, Cumberland, Scholar
Charles GRAHAM 10 Allerby, Cumberland, Scholar
George GRAHAM 5 Allerby, Cumberland, Scholar

[Razzy]

Yes, she flip flopped every census from 1861-1881.
What throws me off as well is when I locate an Eleanor Rogan in Whitehaven
On the 1851 census Whitehaven St. Nicholas Gibsons' court house #82 page 385:
Charles Rogan (not Daniel as per marriage certificate of Thomas and Eleanor) Head 45 Blacksmith born Ireland
Eleanor daughter 10 scholar born in Whitehave Cumberland
John son 7 scholar born in Whitehaven Cumberland
plus two others with different surnames in the same house- housekeeper and another blacksmith.

Again on another 1841 census Whitehaven District 11 St. Bees Quay St. page 20:
Charles Rogan 30 blacksmith
Ann 35
Eleanor 2.
Possibly a relation.
Does anybody deem it strange that in the 1857 marriage certificate Eleanors' father is a blacksmith but, in the 1851 (Carlisle- Hayton and Mealo)and 1861 (Hayton and Mealo) census Daniel Rogan (wife Ann) is an agriculture labourer, not a blacksmith?

[peterd]

you might have the wrong census her father might be daniel as per wedding cert ?

[Razzy]

That could be.
I thought the 1841 census would be the closest albeit, that there is more than one Eleanor Rogan.
By 1851 census Eleanor would easily have left home as a single person.
Do the irish name their children after their parents as did the english and scots?

Razzy

[mallosa]

Yes, I have found that to be the case Razzy, with my husbands ancestors.

[dianel]

Do the irish name their children after their parents as did the english and scots?

Razzy

I find, with my Irish ancestors, that they often do, Razzy. Although they diverge more often from the firmer Scottish tradition of:
1st son named after father's father, 2nd son after mother's father, 1st daughter after mother's mother, 2nd daughter after father's mother.

[Razzy]

For an update-
I have concluded that the George Graham (of Brigham) and Margaret Graham that were married on Feb 9th, 1800 in Cross Canonby are the couple I am looking for.
I have found with help that Margaret or Peggy Graham was born to John Graham and Mary Troughton in Harrington on April 2nd, 1775 (Cockermouth 1861 census).
I need help in finding who this George Graham is from. The only George mentioned is the one born to James Graham from Mosser. We do not have a James in our family. So I believe that George arrived at Brigham from somewhere, unless his parents are there but he was baptized somewhere else.
Can anyone help me?
Thanks,
Razzy