*Arc tbc* --- GT Gt Grandfathers birthplace & birthdate

[David Owen]

Hello All,

I hope that someone can assist.

My Gt Grandfather was William Owen born in 1857 Liverpool
He had two brothers Joseph and Edward (both also born in Liverpool 1859, 1862 respectively

I don't have a problem with this, and have certifciates to back this up. On their certificates their father and mother were
Joseph Owen and Emily Jones (born 1825 - Manchester). I don't have a problem with Emily from the 1841 & 1851 censuses. Her father was Edward Jones of Whittingham Shropshire c1793 and Ann of Ellesmere Shropshire c1797 (sorry just trying to give you same background).

My problem is with Joseph. I have their marriage certificate - 27/12/1856, but it does not say ages, though does say father of Joseph is William who at the time was a farmer and Emily's who was Edward.

The reason I cannot confirm Joseph is that he was not around for the census in 1861 or 1871 (he was a sailor and not around when the census was taken). His wife Emily died of cancer in 1876. The Next of Kin of the certificate says Joseph, but that could be her son. I cannot find Joseph in the 1881 census. Not knowing his birthplace is an issue.

The only farmer that I can find on the 1841 and 1851 census called William Owen with a son named Joseph is one that resided in Barthomley, Cheshire, was born in teh same place 18/05/1778. He had 8 children per 1841 (John, William, Charles, Joseph, Sarah, James. Thomas and Mary). Joseph named his three sons, William, Joseph and Edward which looks good, but think that they were popular names at that time anyway.

I really need to confirm that the Joseph I am looking for was the one born in Barthomley Cheshire - 25/01/1829, or if not, how do I found out where he was born.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

David

[Alec]

Hi David

No certainty but a good possibility cant' find in 1871 -What did he have as occupation on marriage cert and where was Emily in 1851?

1861
RG9; Piece: 4493; Folio: 153; Page: 13
HMS Hero, Holyhead, Anglesey Hamoaze Devon

Joseph Owen 25 Runcorn, Cheshire Ordinary Seaman

[David Owen]

Hello Alec,

Emily was living with her family in 1841 & 1851.

1851

9 Court, Llewellyn Street Toxeth Park Lancs

Edward Jones Head age 58 b. Whittington, Shropshire
Ann Jones wife age 54 b. Ellesmere, Shropshire
Emily Jones dau age 26 b. Manchester, Lancashire
Charlotte Jones dau age 18 b. Liverpool, Lancashire
Williams Jones son age 17 Messenger b. Liverpool, Lancashire
Edwin Jones son age 13 Gunsmith's boy b. Liverpool, Lancashire
Mark Jones son age 9 b. Liverpool, Lancashire



in 1871
Epsom Street, Liverpool - RG10/3762 Folio 21 Page 39

Emily Owens 46, b Manchester
William 13, b Liverpool
Joseph 11, b Liverpool
Edward 9, b Liverpool

in 1861 the census has Emily as a Stokers wife.

I have the death certificate of Emily Owens* (nee Jones).
died 4/6/1876 53 Howe Street, Everton, Liverpool. Female 51 years
Occupation: wife of Joseph Owens a fireman
FYI: she died from cancer of the breast
Informant: Joseph Owens (son)

I also have marriage certificate between

Joseph Owen and
Emily Jones

dated 29/12/1856

Joseph Owen labourer age says FULL which is not that helpful
Emily Jones no occupation age says FULL though I know she was born around 1825.

Joseph Owen's Father was called William Owen who was a Farmer in 1856
Emily's was Edward Jones who was sawyer (born Whittingham Shropshire)
It has both residences as Vauxhall Road. The marriage took place in the Parish of Liverpool.

Kind regards,

David

[peterd]

Hello All,

I hope that someone can assist.

I really need to confirm that the Joseph I am looking for was the one born in Barthomley Cheshire - 25/01/1829, or if not, how do I found out where he was born.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

David

this info has been submitted so i dont no if its correct, but they must of got the original info from somewhere depends on how accurate there source was

Joseph Owen
Christening: 25 JAN 1829 Barthomley, Cheshire, England

Father: William Owen Mother: Mary

will the mothers name mary confirm it or reject it as your joesph

who were the witnesses on joesph and emily marriage cert?

[David Owen]

Hello Peter,

I cannot 100% confirm Joseph's mother christian name at all. Unfortunately, I can only confirm father. As he was not around in the 1851-1861 census I cannot say for definite he was born in 1829 and in Cheshire. Its a bit frustrating. I know where they lived in Liverpool, so don't know if property details would help. The two witnesses on the marriage certificate have very different names and look like best man and chief bridesmaid.

Many thanks for your reply,

David

[peterd]

Hello Peter,

I cannot 100% confirm Joseph's mother christian name at all. Unfortunately, I can only confirm father. As he was not around in the 1851-1861 census I cannot say for definite he was born in 1829 and in Cheshire. Its a bit frustrating. I know where they lived in Liverpool, so don't know if property details would help. The two witnesses on the marriage certificate have very different names and look like best man and chief bridesmaid.

Many thanks for your reply,

David

but if you can find the witnesses on the the census and see if you can find any owens close to them you might get luck
have you seen any navel records for joesph as you no were he was in 1861

1861
RG9; Piece: 4493; Folio: 153; Page: 13
HMS Hero, Holyhead, Anglesey Hamoaze Devon

Joseph Owen 25 Runcorn, Cheshire Ordinary Seaman

[peterd]

Hi David

No certainty but a good possibility cant' find in 1871 -What did he have as occupation on marriage cert and where was Emily in 1851?

1861
RG9; Piece: 4493; Folio: 153; Page: 13
HMS Hero, Holyhead, Anglesey Hamoaze Devon

Joseph Owen 25 Runcorn, Cheshire Ordinary Seaman

dont no if this will help but you might be intrested in it the guy who was captian (ryder) in 1861 ended up admrial of the fleet

this link about hero

http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowShip.php?id=52

[peterd]

found this on another post this might help if you get in contact with them even if you dont know his date of birth if you know it was him on the hero in 1861 then they might have his details

http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/research.htm

[David Owen]

Hello Peter,

That's very interesting. I know for sure that Joseph's wife was born in 1825, and that they lived in Liverpool in the 1850s-1870's, so this one maybe too young and also would be surprised living in Runcorn (they had a child in 1862, so looks like they were still on friendly terms). I would have thought my Gt Gt grandfather would have been in the Merchant Navy rather than Royal. Certainly an avenue to explore though. Many thanks for your time.

Best wishes,

David

[peterd]

1861
RG9; Piece: 4493; Folio: 153; Page: 13
HMS Hero, Holyhead, Anglesey Hamoaze Devon

Joseph Owen 25 Runcorn, Cheshire Ordinary Seaman

if this is your joseph owen then he was in the royal nave as the hero was a 91 gun ship in 1861

[David Owen]

Hello,

Witnesses on the marriage certificate are John Blain and Margaret Taylor. John Blain looks a friend. Can find a few Margaret Taylors in the area and dates, but no Margaret Owens that have married a Taylor.

Best wishes,

David

[Northern Lass]

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