ARC....Thomas Hill (B:1774) M Phoebe Gauden (1776 - 1866)?

[Waltzer7]

Hi,

There's another puzzle to solve regarding Sarah Hill's parents! I do have a record of their marriage: -

Name: Thomas Hill
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Phoebe Gauden
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 09 Jun 1794
Event Place: Old Swinford, Worcester, England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04839-9
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 291595
Reference ID: item 1

Citing this Record:
"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ9G-BXD : accessed 9 May 2015), Thomas Hill and Phoebe Gauden, 09 Jun 1794; citing Old Swinford, Worcester, England, reference item 1; FHL microfilm 291,595.

But the puzzling thing is Thomas died in 1807 (not sure if this is correct?) and yet, they "continued" to have more children after Thomas' death in 1807! I cannot find records of Phoebe remarrying?

At present I have Thomas Hill (1774 - 1807) m Phoebe Gauden (1776 - April 1866) Their children were: -

Sarah 1794 - 1868 (She married Benjamin Hodgetts)
John Thomas 1796 - 1876
William 1797 -
Thomas 1799 - 1872
John 1803 - 1883
Benjamin 1805
Priscilla 1809
Sarah 1812
Joseph 1815
Ann 1818
Henry 1821

Forgot to add that I could not find Thomas Hill on the BCC plus how do I link to BCC without this page disappearing?

Thanks

[BC Wench]

Marriage: 9 June 1794 Oldswinford
Thomas Hill & Phoebe Gauden

Sarah 1794 - 1868 (She married Benjamin Hodgetts)
John Thomas 1796 - 1876
William 1797 -
Thomas 1799 - 1872
John 1803 - 1883
Benjamin 1805
Priscilla 1809
Sarah 1812
Joseph 1815
Ann 1818
Henry 1821

This could be them.

1851 Census: Bower Lane, Kingswinford
Thomas Hill, Head.M, 78, Brick Maker
Pheb/Phoebe Hill, Wife, 76
Ann Guest, Dau in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner’s Wife (Born: 1819) Could be daughter rather than dau in law
William Guest, Son in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner
Lackarie/Zacharie? Guest, Son, 3
Carolin Guest, Dau, 8mths
Phelia/Phoebe Hill, Grand Dau, 11
Josh Hill, Son.M, 35, Brick Maker (Born: 1816)

1861 Census: The Bower, Quarry Bank
Thomas Hill, Head.M, 88, No occupation, born: Bower
Phoebe Hill, Wife, 86, Lye
//
Thomas Hill (Junior), Head.M, 60, Cart Labourer, Quarry Bank (Born: 1801)
Ann Hill, Wife, 63, Cradley
Elijah Hill, Son.UM, 23, Clay Labourer, Cradley
Daniel Hill, Son, 17, Cart Labourer, Cradley

Do you have any of the baptisms of the children to make sure that you have the correct parents?

Also, why do you believe that Thomas died in 1807?

[Waltzer7]

Hi BC Wench,

Yes they do seem to be from the same family but not sure about Josh being short for Joseph? Usually Joe is short for Joseph?

How do I find out the baptisms of the children from that era?

This is what I've found: -

Thomas Hill
Birth 1774 in Old Swinford, Worcestershire, , England
Death May 1807 in Weston on Trent, Staffordshire, , England

Birth
1774
Old Swinford, Worcestershire, , England
Marriage to Phebe Gauden
1794
Age: 20
Oldswinford, Worcestershire, , England
Death
1807
May
Age: 33
Weston on Trent, Staffordshire, , England

Phoebe Gauden
Birth 1776 in Old Swinford, Worcestershire, , England
Death
1776
Old Swinford, Worcestershire, , England
Marriage to Thomas Hill
1794
Age: 18
Oldswinford, Worcestershire, , England
1 Source
Residence
1841
Age: 65
Dudley, Worcestershire, England

Any advice will be much appreciated, thanks.

[Waltzer7]

From this link: https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... %3AGauden~

Preview Name Events Relationships Details Image

Thomas Hill
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 9 June 1794 Old Swinford, Worcester, England
spouse: Phoebe Gauden

Thomas Hill
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 9 June 1794 Old Swinford, Worcester, England
spouse: Phoebe Gauden



Thomas Hill
Father


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Benjamin Hill
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Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Sarah Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: John Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: John Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Diana Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Thomas Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Benjamin Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: William Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Priscilla Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Thomas Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Sarah Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Sarah Hill

Thomas Hill
Father
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
spouse: Phoebe
child: Sarah Hill

[gardener]

I think that a pinch of common sense is required.

Thomas Hill
Birth 1774 in Old Swinford, Worcestershire, , England
Death May 1807 in Weston on Trent, Staffordshire, , England

As you say that Thomas Hill and Phoebe continued having children after 1807 and Weston On Trent is so far away then I think this death can be discounted entirely.

[gardener]

Marriage: 9 June 1794 Oldswinford
Thomas Hill & Phoebe Gauden

Sarah 1794 - 1868 (She married Benjamin Hodgetts)
John Thomas 1796 - 1876
William 1797 -
Thomas 1799 - 1872
John 1803 - 1883
Benjamin 1805
Priscilla 1809
Sarah 1812
Joseph 1815
Ann 1818
Henry 1821

This could be them.

1851 Census: Bower Lane, Kingswinford
Thomas Hill, Head.M, 78, Brick Maker
Pheb/Phoebe Hill, Wife, 76
Ann Guest, Dau in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner’s Wife (Born: 1819) Could be daughter rather than dau in law
William Guest, Son in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner
Lackarie/Zacharie? Guest, Son, 3
Carolin Guest, Dau, 8mths
Phelia/Phoebe Hill, Grand Dau, 11
Josh Hill, Son.M, 35, Brick Maker (Born: 1816)

This marriage would fit maybe?

Name: Anne Hill
Gender: Female
Father's name: Thomas Hill
Spouse's Name: William Guest
Spouse's Father's Name: Zechariah Guest
Marriage Date: 29 Nov 1846
Marriage Place: Clent, Worcestershire, England

with young Phoebe from an earlier relationship?

1841
KIngswinford
Thos Hill 65 brick maker
Pheobe Hill 60
Ann Hill 20
Pheobe Hill 1
all born in county

[Waltzer7]

Marriage: 9 June 1794 Oldswinford
Thomas Hill & Phoebe Gauden

Sarah 1794 - 1868 (She married Benjamin Hodgetts)
John Thomas 1796 - 1876
William 1797 -
Thomas 1799 - 1872
John 1803 - 1883
Benjamin 1805
Priscilla 1809
Sarah 1812
Joseph 1815
Ann 1818
Henry 1821

This could be them.

1851 Census: Bower Lane, Kingswinford
Thomas Hill, Head.M, 78, Brick Maker
Pheb/Phoebe Hill, Wife, 76
Ann Guest, Dau in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner’s Wife (Born: 1819) Could be daughter rather than dau in law
William Guest, Son in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner
Lackarie/Zacharie? Guest, Son, 3
Carolin Guest, Dau, 8mths
Phelia/Phoebe Hill, Grand Dau, 11
Josh Hill, Son.M, 35, Brick Maker (Born: 1816)

This marriage would fit maybe?

Name: Anne Hill
Gender: Female
Father's name: Thomas Hill
Spouse's Name: William Guest
Spouse's Father's Name: Zechariah Guest
Marriage Date: 29 Nov 1846
Marriage Place: Clent, Worcestershire, England

with young Phoebe from an earlier relationship?

1841
KIngswinford
Thos Hill 65 brick maker
Pheobe Hill 60
Ann Hill 20
Pheobe Hill 1
all born in county

Apologies as I'm confused to which is which?

Would the above Thomas Hill be the son of Thomas Hill (1774) who married Phoebe Gauden (1776 - 1866).

Is Zechariah Guest son of Carolin Guest (Thomas Hill (1774) & Phoebe's daughter?

I have found a Zechariah Hill, son of John Thomas Hill (1796 - 17/5/1876) who was the son of Thomas Hill (1774) & Phoebe Gauden.

Thanks

[BC Wench]

Hello Waltzer7 I have sent you a pm (private message)

[gardener]

BCWench posted this

1851 Census: Bower Lane, Kingswinford
Thomas Hill, Head.M, 78, Brick Maker
Pheb/Phoebe Hill, Wife, 76
Ann Guest, Dau in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner’s Wife (Born: 1819) Could be daughter rather than dau in law
William Guest, Son in law.Mar, 32, Coal Miner
Lackarie/Zacharie? Guest, Son, 3
Carolin Guest, Dau, 8mths
Phelia/Phoebe Hill, Grand Dau, 11
Josh Hill, Son.M, 35, Brick Maker (Born: 1816)

I took that to mean that although Ann Guest is listed as dau in law in the 1851 census she may have been the wife of William Guest but the daughter of Thomas and Phoebe Hill. There is a possible marriage at Clent 29 Nov 1846, and the 1841 census has Ann Hill of the "right" age, living in the household of Thomas and Phoebe Hill, along with a child Phoebe Hill aged 1. She fits the 11 year old Phoebe Hill in the 1851 census so perhaps she is Ann Hill's daughter pre-marriage?

Is Zechariah Guest son of Carolin Guest (Thomas Hill (1774) & Phoebe's daughter?

The Zachariah Guest aged 3 in the 1851 census seems to be the son of William and Ann (nee Hill) Guest, named after William's father perhaps.

[Waltzer7]

Hello Waltzer7 I have sent you a pm (private message)

Hi BC Wench, I've just replied to your pm.

I now understand which part of the family tree you and Gardener are referring to. Yes, it all fits. Same brothers & sisters of Sarah Hill, with the mystery of where John Thomas Hill was christened/baptised... Have only got John Thomas down as being married to Eliza Potter on 3 January 1851 as well as died on 14 May 1876 at 10, Waterloo Street, Kidderminster.

[sp1]

These are from my line:

Phoebe Gauden was bapt 1 Sept 1776, Old Swinford, d of Thomas Gauden & Phoebe Green. ( this Thomas was bapt 24 Mar 1743, Old Swinford, s of Thomas Gauden (b 24 Apr 1699, bapt 13 May 1699, Old Swinford, & Ann Hill (b 1704, d 1782) - at least some of these earlier generations should be on BCC.

Children of Thomas Hill and Phoebe Gauden (and I have bapts for all of these):
Sarah 1795
William 1797
Thomas 1799
John 1803
Benjamin 1805
Sarah 1812
Joseph 1815
Ann 1818
Henry 1821

[sp1]

Now a couple of problems:

I don't think Sarah b1794/5 married anyone: there is a later Sarah, which almost always implies the earlier one had died.
There was no John Thomas - there were TWO seperate children called John and Thomas, so I don't think there would be a third with both names! - add to that there is no baptism for him....

[BC Wench]

That's brilliant sp1 thanks very much, that confirms what we have.

I didn't think the John Thomas Hill born about 1796 belonged to this Thomas & Phoebe Hill.

I wonder why Thomas & Phoebe had 2 girls by the name of Sarah? One baptised 11 Oct 1795 (who supposedly married Benjamin Hodgetts) and the other Sarah baptised 26 Jul 1812 both at Oldswinford.

I will put all the info on to BCC tomorrow.

You beat me to it sp1. I agree with you on both accounts.

[sp1]

Now, Thomas Hill b Abt 1774 - no idea who he was: there are about 6 candidates in Old Swinford alone!

I concur with some of the other findings:
1. I think Thomas b1799 m Ann (unk) and had Elijah 1838 and Daniel 1844 b Cradley
2. I think Ann b1818 was the mother of Phoebe b1840, them m William Guest in 1846 and had Zachariah 1848 and Caroline 1850

[sp1]

Missed one:
Thomas Hill & Phoebe Gauden (b1776) also had Priscilla bapt 2 Apr 1809, Old Swinford