ARC TBC WILSON George & DEBRUYNE

[Marinakyo]

Hello, my name is Marina, I'm leaving in France, sorry for my english, hope u'll understand me...I do genealogy since 2012, just

France, until now...I'm on this forum I need help so much :

A english man named WILSON George met this french girl named DEBRUYNE Marie Louise, they got married in june 1919, they got a son

named WILSON Noel Joseph, in 1919 december the 25th Petite-Synthe (France)...

I have some informations :

WILSON George
Birth : 18.03.1894, HULL
"Soldat du Génie de l'armée britannique"

He married DEBRUYNE Marie Louise in 1919, june the 11th, Petite-Synthe (France)

His Parents leave HUll (1919):
WILSON George & SMELT Elisabeth

DEBRUYNE Marie Louise
Birth : 03.11.1900 Petite-Synthe (France)

Her Parents (France):
DEBRUYNE Aimé Benjamin
DUMON Coralie Marie

I dont know how to make searchings in english...

I think they returned in England after Noel's birth...I would like to know where I could get WILSON George's certificate of birth

(for free?), informations about his Military period? Any census of HULL after 1919? Maybe their death's date (well where? I dunno

myself...Maybe HULL as the WILSON's parents leaved there...)

I Hope someone could answer to my requests...^^

Thx u
Marina

[SRD]

Hi Marina, welcome to the forum.
There are various free sites where you might find information:
FreeBMD which has links to a couple of other free sites.
The information you find there will enable you to apply for certificates from the General Register Office. You will have to pay for this.

[Marinakyo]

Thx u very much for ur answer, I'll try to find on the sites

^_^

[grangers14]

So did George return to England? Do you have a record of Noels birth and if so what does that say? And do you have the marriage record? I have no idea what French records hold.
You do have to pay for certificates in the uk unless you can find Parish records.
If you let us know all that you know we can try to help.
Jo

[Marinakyo]

Hello Jo,

I do have the records, I'm living close to Petite-Synthe, unfortunately not close to Hull
We can have records for free in France, U go to mayor town and ask to see the 'registers' and u can take pictures. U can write and they send u a copy.
On the papers u can read parent's names, witnesses of the birth, the home adress (not all the time), age, their job, their signs or marks for who doesnt know write

George lives in England, Hull, that's written on the wedding paper (he bornt there, and he lives there (not lived) so his principal home is in england.
On wedding papers there are English witnesses, same for WILSON Noel's birth certificate, they are not family, and they live in England

Witnesses :
CRAWFORD Hugh, 37
WESTNOY Frédérick James, 42

After Noel, not other children...It's very usual than the wife follows the husband in his town or country, I think they returned in England, he lives there, he is soldier, the witnesses arent french and they live in england...

Maybe there are informations on WILSON George's certificate birth? Sometimes they add the death date on certificate birth...

Thx u for ur answer, and I hope my english isnt so poor that u cant understand it lol

WEDDING


BIRTH of NOel

[grangers14]

Your English is much better than my French! Dont worry

This is what I think but you will need to buy certificates as SRD said.

This is a possible birth for George
George Wilson, Hull, June, 1894, 9d 269

The marriage of his parents…
September 1889
Elizabeth Smelt Hull 9d 405
George Wilson Hull 8d 405

This is just the registration of marriages. To order the certificates you need to use the numbers and quarter to order a certificate from the GRO

It looks like his mother re married
Joseph Tate Sculcoates, 9d 239
Elizabeth Wilson, Sculcoates 9d 239

1901 Census. 108 Danson Lane, Drypool, Sculcoates
Joseph Tate, head, 27, Assurance agent
Elizabeth, wife, 39?
William Ernest, son, 10 months
George Wilson, step son, 7,
All born Hull

1911 Census. 47 Madeley Street, Hull
Joseph Tate, head, 38, Insurance Agent
Elizabeth Tate, wife, 39, married 17 years, 3 children, all living
George Wilson, step son, 17,
Ernest Tate, son, 10,
Stanley Tate, son, 3,
Phyliss Tate, daughter, 2,
Betsy Carrill, (not certain of surname) visitor, 65, Widow, Louth Lincolnshire
All others born Hull

If there is anything you dont understand there please say.
Jo

[Marinakyo]

George bornt in 1894, in march the 18th

Thx u, I'l check that, have to be sure before pay....I'm sure for WILSON George Birth date

NOthing Gratis ? SO how do u do ur genealogy? U pay and pay?

Many records are numerised, we are quite lucky...

http://www.archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=532

[gardener]

Yes we have to pay unless we can get into an archives where they have copies of church registers and the census. That costs nothing.

George bornt in 1894, in march the 18th

Thx u, I'l check that, have to be sure before pay....I'm sure for WILSON George Birth date

NOthing Gratis ? SO how do u do ur genealogy? U pay and pay?

Many records are numerised, we are quite lucky...

http://www.archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=532

This is a possible birth for George
George Wilson, Hull, June, 1894, 9d 269

Births have to be registered no less than 6 weeks after the baby is born, and the registers are divided into quarters of a year. So If a baby is born on March 18th the parents have until the end of April to register the birth. If they waited until April then the birth would go in the 2nd quarter for that year = April, May and June months but it is referred to as the "June quarter". So the record that Grangers found looks OK from that point of view.

[gardener]

The French marriage certificate is wonderful! Why can't we have those here?

It says that George's father was "fabricant de cadres pour tableaux" and thanks to Google I know that is a pictureframe manufacturer so

1891 census
24 Brighton Tr, Sculcoates, Yorkshire
Ann Wright head wid 66 Yorkshire, Sutton
Elizabeth Wilson granddau mar 19 Yorkshire, Hull
George Wilson Grandson in law mar 35 Picture frame maker Yorkshire, Hull

23 Brighton Tr
George Hy Smelt head mar 40 Corporation labourer Yorkshire, Hull
Mary Alice ditto wife mar 34 Yorkshire Hull
Edith ditto dau s 16 Yorkshire Hull
George Hy ditto son 12 scholar Yorkshire Hull
Fredrick ditto son 10 scholar Yorkshire Hull
Mary Alice ditto dau 7 Yorkshire Hull
Sarah Ann ditto dau 4 Yorkshire Hull
Ethel ditto dau 10mo Yorkshire Hull

[gardener]

So it looks as though George Wilson married Elizabeth Smelt (big age difference), the he dies and she remarries

Sep qtr 1899
Joseph Tate Sculcoates 9d 239
Elizabeth Wilson Sculcoates 9d 239


The registration system in England is a bit complicated
Since about 1837 births, marriages and death have been registered in the civil system which is made of lots of different areas and subareas. It can be searched here http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

There are different registers for each event and usually a few entries on each page. Usually there are four names on each page for marriages (can be 6 though) and they are for two couples. On the freebmd site you find a page code and can use that if you want to order the certificate from the general register office (they have copies of all the certificates).

The certificate copies were sent from the local register office and some of these have allowed volunteers to make a list of records from their own registers. Yorkshire has a site for this http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/ They give slightly different information, just the year and not the quarter. And for a marriage it will also name the church if the wedding took place in one. So Elizabeth's second marriage is there like this

1899
TATE Joseph WILSON Elizabeth St Andrew (Drypool) Hull JF/9/384

Her first marriage is on there too
1889
SMELT Elizabeth WILSON George Hull Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull HRO/33/91

This site uses different codes to the General Register Office. Sorry about how complicated it all is!

[gardener]

Sorry, I wondered away from your original question a bit.

Back to George Wilson born 18.3.1894 in Hull

On the FreeBMD site you can search for him by putting in his name, the year, and choosing to search between March and June - this will give births registered in the first two quarters of the year Jan-Feb-Mar and April-May-Jun As I explained before, a baby born late in the March quarter could be registered in the June quarter.

It is possible to limit the search to certain parts of the country, either by choosing the registration district (if you know it) or the county. You know from the marriage certificate that George said he was born in Hull. Hull is in Yorkshire and Yorkshire is divided into smaller parts so Hull comes under "East Riding of Yorkshire" so it is best to select that.

The results are:

Type: Births Surname: wilson First name(s): george
Start date: Mar 1894 End date: Jun 1894 District: all
County: East Riding of Yorkshire

Births Jun 1894
Wilson George Hull 9d 269
Wilson George Hull 9d 269


which is a bit odd as it looks like two with the same name

The local site http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk also gives two records

WILSON George Myton Hull MYT/191/298
WILSON George Myton Hull MYT/191/299

they look as though they have been entered one after the other. Myton is a sub-district of Hull.

If you decide to buy the birth certificate make sure that you supply the names of his parents as well. Then you should get the right one. I don't understand why there seem to be two.

You should know though that English birth certificates do not give very much information. They have the date of birth, the name of the child, name and occupation of the father (if known), name (and maiden name) of the mother, address for the birth, and who registered the birth.

You already know most of that from the marriage certificate but it would confirm it. Otherwise you could just press on from the census information.

1891 census
24 Brighton Tr, Sculcoates, Yorkshire
Ann Wright head wid 66 Yorkshire, Sutton
Elizabeth Wilson granddau mar 19 Yorkshire, Hull
George Wilson Grandson in law mar 35 Picture frame maker Yorkshire, Hull

23 Brighton Tr
George Hy Smelt head mar 40 Corporation labourer Yorkshire, Hull
Mary Alice ditto wife mar 34 Yorkshire Hull
Edith ditto dau s 16 Yorkshire Hull
George Hy ditto son 12 scholar Yorkshire Hull
Fredrick ditto son 10 scholar Yorkshire Hull
Mary Alice ditto dau 7 Yorkshire Hull
Sarah Ann ditto dau 4 Yorkshire Hull
Ethel ditto dau 10mo Yorkshire Hull

that seems to show George Wilson with his wife Elizabeth, living with her grandmother (mother's mother?) and next door to her father and the rest of the family. So that gives you a lot to work on!

[gardener]

I think they returned in England after Noel's birth...I would like to know where I could get WILSON George's certificate of birth

(for free?), informations about his Military period? Any census of HULL after 1919? Maybe their death's date (well where? I dunno

The most recent census available is for 1911. They like to wait 100 years before releasing information from the census.

There is a military section of this site. You could post on that and maybe the right people would see the question.

I noticed that the marriage in 1919 was witnessed by Sergeant Major Thomas Campbelton (the surname has been made very "French" in the certificate but he signs his name at the bottom) aged 30 from Chatham, and Sergeant Edward Lloyd aged 24, from Reading.

This looks like Thomas Campbelton

1911
Name: Thomas Arthur Campbelton
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Birth Place: Chatham, Kent, England
County/Island: Military
Country: England
Military Unit: Royal Engineers

so it looks to me as though George Wilson would be in the Royal Engineers too, and they were all still stationed in France in 1919.
It isn't this one though
Name: George Wilson
Birth: abt 1895
Residence: 1914 - P 38 Field St, Hull
because his father is William Wilson

[Marinakyo]

Didnt read what u typed yet, I'll check all of that tonite

I'm so lucky... another DEBRUYNE Girl married an english man lol and her sister married a man from Tchecoslovaquia, it becomes international...I'll check that later

Thx u so much !!!

[Marinakyo]

I've decided to print all u type, and translate into french for my uncle

I think U Gave the right informations, but have to get the certificate to be sure, sure and sure

Thx u, thx u very much

[Marinakyo]

1901 Census. 108 Danson Lane, Drypool, Sculcoates
Joseph Tate................................
Elizabeth, wife, 39?
................................

1911 Census. 47 Madeley Street, Hull
Joseph Tate..................................
Elizabeth Tate, wife, 39..................
.................................

Means the age of Elizabeth isnt mentionned on the census 1901? Isnt it 29 ?