ARC TBC - Birth certificate January 1837?

[Jooliepie]

Hi guys, looking for advice I've hit a brick wall with online searches with my GG grandad and beyond.
His name is James Ryan, parents Helen and John. Born Liverpool 16th January 1837. I found a baptism entry in the Liverpool Catholic baptism register for St Marys in Lancashire which fits and I have census, marriage service records etc moving forward, but the trails gone cold with moving back up the line. I believe they were Irish but can't be sure. I think I may have a marriage entry for Helen (Ellen) Green and John Ryan in 1835 St Nicholas in Liverpool but am not 100% convinced.

Any ideas where I can go from here. I'm happy to put the work in but think my inexperience and general "newbie ness "
Is holding me back
Thanks in anticipation
Julie

[catfordcrooner]

If you have the 1851 census, he would probably, at aged 14 still be living with his parents and that census would tell you where they were born

[Jooliepie]

I tried that. Cannot find any census record . I do know that in 1857 he joined the Army- attestation papers show enlistment to Royal Irish 86th in Dublin. But Helen and John are proving hard to trace... I'm determined to crack this one!

[catfordcrooner]

Ryan is an Irish name and I've seen that list and nearly everyone seems to be Irish

[peterd]

Hi guys, looking for advice I've hit a brick wall with online searches with my GG grandad and beyond.
His name is James Ryan, parents Helen and John. Born Liverpool 16th January 1837. I found a baptism entry in the Liverpool Catholic baptism register for St Marys in Lancashire which fits and I have census, marriage service records etc moving forward, but the trails gone cold with moving back up the line. I believe they were Irish but can't be sure. I think I may have a marriage entry for Helen (Ellen) Green and John Ryan in 1835 St Nicholas in Liverpool but am not 100% convinced.

Any ideas where I can go from here. I'm happy to put the work in but think my inexperience and general "newbie ness "
Is holding me back
Thanks in anticipation
Julie

post the marriage info and census you have this might help use to find them

[Jooliepie]

Thanks
This is what I've got so far. I found an entry showing birth 16th Jan and baptism 18th January 1837
Detail: Liverpool Record Office; Liverpool, England; Liber Baptizatorum; Reference Number: 282 HIG/1/7

This shows parents as Helen and John Ryan but gives no further detail.

As I have nothing else to go on I searched for weddings and all I could find was for Ellen Green to John Ryan in February 1835 at St Peters church in Liverpool.

I have just ordered the marriage certificate for James hoping that it gives info on fathers birth place which may help. Being new to this would there be a birth certificate for a Jan 1837 birth? Obviously this would be very helpful but don't seem to be able to find this.
Very grateful for any help, thanks
Julie

[grangers14]

There will be no birth certificate for that date, only church records. Certificates did not start till 1st July 1837.
Jo

[grangers14]

The marriage cert will not say place of birth for father. It will just say where James was *supposedly* living. Witnesses may help though.
Jo

[gardener]

Hi
It is always hard joining the dots!

Do you have James's marriage certificate? Does it give his father as John? Any occupation for John? Any witnesses?

Do you have James for certain in the census? Which ones and where? How do you know that baptism in Liverpool is the correct one?

(Sorry, questions...)

[Jooliepie]

I've just ordered marriage certificate.. Should have it in a few days.
I only have census for 1881 - when he's in his 40s and has left army 1881 living in Aldershot
England Census
Detail: Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 786; Folio: 2; Page: 8; GSU roll: 1341185
I have army records showing enlistment to Royal Irish rifles 86th foot service number 236 discharged in 1877 due to ill health. Children were born South Africa India and Ireland which fits with where thus regiment was deployed.
Not certain at all that baptism or marriage is correct - my Mum (83 bless her) thought my GGG grandma was called Helen so that's what I've been working on - could of course be completely wrong but guess that's all part of the challenge

[gardener]

OK.
Here is the 1881 census

Aldershot, Corps of Royal Engineers
James Ryan 43 servant (officers) pensioner Chelsea Liverpool
Margaret Ryan 43 Malta
Margaret Ryan 11 Cape of Good Hope, Cape Town
Lewis F. Ryan 9 ditto
Christopher D. Ryan 7 ditto
Jane Ryan 5 Ireland
James J. Ryan 2 Hants Aldershot


There is no point looking for them in the 1871 census it seems. Possibly not the 1861 either if James was already overseas.
Is that his marriage to Margaret Burgess in 1859?

Find My Past has
RYAN JAMES 1838 — 1858 Regimental & service records St Marys, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
could that be him? Or is it another James Ryan?

Perhaps we should wait for the marriage certificate as that will confirm his father's name and perhaps give his occupation.

[Jooliepie]

Yup that's him- I got the service record fron findmypast will post again when the marriage cert turns up thanks for help so far
Julie

[BC Wench]

You may or may not have this marriage of John Ryan & Ellen Green. Found on Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerks http://www.lan-opc.org.uk

Marriage: 24 Feb 1835 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Ryan - (X), Labourer, This Parish
Ellen Green - (X), Widow, This Parish
Witness: Patrick Maguire, (X); Mary Maguire, (X)
Married by Banns by: William Tyrer B A Off Minister
Register: Marriages 1834 - 1836, Page 64, Entry 191
Source: LDS Film 94018

[Jooliepie]

Yup had that too - it's reassuring that you guys are just finding the same stuff. Will post when I get the marriage cert if it gives any more clues

[Jooliepie]

Ok marriage certificate has arrived. Confirms James Ryan born Jan 1837 st marys liverpool. Father John Ryan bootmaker. So now have to trawl 1841 census for a John Ryan boot maker with toddler - wish me luck