John Isabelle & wife Mary

[mallosa]

(looked up by Rockyfowler)

Marriage 23 Dec 1850 St John The Evangelist Kate's Hill
John ISABELLE O Bachelor Whitesmith Dudley Father John Isabelle Miner
Mary SMART O Spinster Dudley Father Joseph Smart Miner
After Banns
the X Of Both
Wit; Cornelius Webb X / Mary Ann Smart X

Can we find these in later Census'

[gardener]

I can't

[sparkstopper]

No luck on FMP or Ancestry???????
KRO:

[gardener]

All I can find fits with the census on BCC

Deaths Mar 1839 (>99%)
Isabel John Dudley 18 213 Scan available - click to view

Births Jun 1842 (>99%)
ISABELL Caroline Dudley 18 284 Scan available - click to view

Marriages Dec 1850 (>99%)
Isabelle John Dudley 18 456 Scan available - click to view

Deaths Jun 1860 (>99%)
ISABELL John Dudley 6c ? Scan available - click to view

that death is this one
County Staffordshire
Place Dudley Staffs
Church St John (Kates Hill)
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 13 Jun 1860
Forename John
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname ISABELL
Age 61
Abode Dudley
Notes
FileNumber 26851


Rather oddly, John's widow Mary seems to be calling herself Smart in 1861. Living with children Caroline and Emmanuel, and Sarah who is married to WIlliam Lilley. Unless that is actually a Mary Smart?

1861
Household schedule number: 23
Piece: 2055
Folio: 102
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Smart 62
Emanuel Smart 22
Caroline Smart 20

William Lilly 33
Sarah Lilly 32
Edward Lilly 8
Sarah Ann Lilly 5
John Lilly 2

1851 and 1841 were already on BCC
Household schedule number: 21
Piece: 2032
Folio: 258
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
John Isabell 60
Mary Isabell 50
Emanuel Isabell 14
Carolin Isabell 8
William Lilley 22
Sarah Lilley 20
James Lilley 9 Mo

1841
Piece: 1196
Book: 10
Folio: 47
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
John Isabel 45
Mary Isabel 40
John Isabel 15
Sarah Isabel 10
Laura Isabel 6
Emanuel Isabel 3 Mo

[gardener]

It is a confusing one!

Name: Emanuel Isabel Smart
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 23 Nov 1837
Baptism Date: 17 Dec 1837
Baptism Place: St. Thomas, Dudley, Worcester, England
Mother: Mary Smart
FHL Film Number: 350620
Reference ID: yr 1837-1839 p 122

[gardener]

Emanuel married as a Smart

Name: Emmanuel Smart
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Age: 24
Birth Date: 1841
Marriage Date: 9 Apr 1865
Marriage Place: St. James Church Parish, Dudley, Worcester, England
Father: John Smart
Spouse: Harriet Packins
FHL Film Number: 1470599
Reference ID: Item 1 p82 #163

his bride should be Paskin(s) I think. They had a couple of kids, then Emanuel died and she remarried.

1871
Henry Guy 35
Harriet Guy 28
Ann Guy 13
Joseph Guy 10
Elizabeth Guy 6
Margaret Guy 4
Caroline Smart 5
David Smart 4

1881
Henry Guy 46
Harriet Guy 37
Joseph Guy 19
Harriet Guy 10
David Smart 14
Eliza Guy 8
Henry Guy 6
Maria Guy 4
Hannah Guy 3

(not helping to find John, just might come in handy one day).

[Northern Lass]

(looked up by Rockyfowler)

Marriage 23 Dec 1850 St John The Evangelist Kate's Hill
John ISABELLE O Bachelor Whitesmith Dudley Father John Isabelle Miner
Mary SMART O Spinster Dudley Father Joseph Smart Miner
After Banns
the X Of Both
Wit; Cornelius Webb X / Mary Ann Smart X

Can we find these in later Census'

We have this lot already on Bcc
http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/tr ... i=64850054

Mary seems to be with son Joseph Smart....if that is same Mary on later census.

That marriage above seems to be for Mary mother so needs merging.

dont think it is son John Isabella/Smart.

going to merge

[Northern Lass]

Maybe Mary is a Mary Smart has kids out of wedlock ....John isabella may actually be father
so kids bapt as Smart

Mary marries John Isabella in 1850
kids take on Isabella name
John dies and Mary lives with son Joseph Smart in 1871

if that is the same Mary which looks like it to me
will put amended link on in min

1850
SMART Mary ISABELLA John Dudley, St John The Evangelist, Kates Hill Dudley Register Office 203/001/219

marriage on free reg
23 Dec 1850 St John Dudley
John Isabelle ofa bach whitesmith Dudley father John Isabelle miner
Mary Smart ofa spinster Dudley father Joseph Smart miner
Wits Cornelius Webb Mary Ann Smart


1841 Mamble Dudley
John Isabell 45 whitesmith
Mary Isabell 40
John Isabell 14
Sarah Isabell 10
Laura? Isabell 6
Emanuel Isabell 3 mths
all yes born in County


1851 Mamble Dudley
John Isabell? head married 60 whitesmith
Mary Isabell? wife married 50
Emmanuel Isabell? son 14 fendermaker
Caroline Isabell? dau 8
William Lilly son in law married 22 miner coal
Sarah Lilly Son in laws wife 20 screw maker
James Lilly grandson 9 mths
all born dudley


1861 Mamble Dudley
Mary Smart head wid 62
Emanuel Smart son unm 22
Caroline Smart dau unm 20 nail maker
/William Lilly head married 33 Coal miner
Sarah Lilly wife mar 32
Edward Lilly son 8 scholar
Sarah Ann Lilly dau 5
John Lilly son 2
all born Dudley

1848
LILLEY William SMART Sarah Dudley, St John The Evangelist, Kates Hill Dudley Register Office 203/001/99


Q is this the same Mary?
1871
13 Bailey Street Tipton Staffs.
Joseph Smart head wid 52 Coal miner Worcs. Dudley
Mary Smart mother wid 74 Pauper
John Cooper son in law mar 25 coal miner Staffs. Bilston
Mary Ann Cooper mar dau 24 b Tipton
Joseph Smart Son 21 unmarried coalminer
Emanuel Smart son 11 Coal miner
Charles Cooper Grandson 2
all others born Tipton

name Emmanuel featured in family??

[Northern Lass]

Do we have other bapts for kids?


merged and amended here
http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/tr ... =624653269

putting kids as Smart or how bapt./regis etc

[Northern Lass]

kids regis as..will add to this post as I find
if anyone can find the other bapts that would help

we have emanuels that gardener found...at st thomas adding that in.


Births Dec 1837
Smart Emanuel Dudley 18 209


Births Jun 1842
ISABELL Caroline Dudley 18 284

[Northern Lass]

1848
LILLEY William SMART Sarah Dudley, St John The Evangelist, Kates Hill Dudley Register Office 203/001/99


will put down for look up if not down already

is this marriage available anywhere else online?

[grangers14]

Freereg


County Staffordshire
Place Dudley Staffs
Church St John (Kates Hill)
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 24 Apr 1848
GroomForename William
GroomSurname LILLEY
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Collier
GroomAbode Dudley
BrideForename Sarah
BrideSurname SMART
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Dudley
GroomFatherForename Matthew
GroomFatherSurname LILLEY
GroomFatherOccupation Nailer
BrideFatherForename John
BrideFatherSurname SMART
BrideFatherOccupation Whitesmith
WitnessOneForename Mary
WitnessOneSurname HENLEY
WitnessTwoForename Cornelius
WitnessTwoSurname WEBB
Notes
FileNumber 27046

[Northern Lass]

Thanks Jo

Father is probably that John Isabella and put down as John Smart Whitesmith for appearances
see that quite alot on look ups.

cant see bapts for other kids

Caroline Isabella /Smart
Laura Isabella/Smart

[rockyfowler]

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18031


Re: Marriage - St John The Evangelist, Kates Hill Mally

Postby rockyfowler » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:20 am
FreeREG
Welcome to the home of U.K. Parish Register Information.
Search Record Details
County Staffordshire
Place Dudley Staffs
Church St John (Kates Hill)
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 24 Apr 1848
GroomForename William
GroomSurname LILLEY
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Collier
GroomAbode Dudley
BrideForename Sarah
BrideSurname SMART
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Dudley
GroomFatherForename Matthew
GroomFatherSurname LILLEY
GroomFatherOccupation Nailer
BrideFatherForename John
BrideFatherSurname SMART
BrideFatherOccupation Whitesmith
WitnessOneForename Mary
WitnessOneSurname HENLEY
WitnessTwoForename Cornelius
WitnessTwoSurname WEBB
Notes
FileNumber 26855

PS From Dudley Archives
The ages were both minors
And After Banns The X Of Both
Wit; The X Of Mary / Cornelius Signed

[gardener]

I don't know. There is a John Isabel with a Sarah

Place Dudley Staffs
Church St Thomas
RegisterNumber 1752
BaptismDate 18 Jan 1835
Forename Eliza
FatherForename John
MotherForename Sarah
FatherSurname ISABEL
Abode Dudley
FatherOccupation Whitesmith
Notes
FileNumber 8510

and a couple of burials that may belong

Place Dudley Staffs
Church St Thomas
RegisterNumber 2058
BurialDate 16 Sep 1830
Forename William
Surname ISABELL
Age 2y6m
Abode Dudley
FileNumber 8441

County Staffordshire
Place Dudley Staffs
Church St Thomas
RegisterNumber 591
BurialDate 16 Jun 1836
Forename William
Surname ISABEL
Age 4y3m
Abode Dudley
FileNumber 8443

So I wondered if John Isabel was married to Sarah and had some kids, then Sarah died and he was unmarried with Mary Smart, kids variously registered as Smart or Isabel. I think the marriage for John Isabel and Mary Smart could be son John (born 1826ish). and I don't see any real reason to connect with the Tipton family.

This might be Caroline's marriage, not sure

Name: Caroline Smart
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Age: 20
Birth Date: 1841
Marriage Date: 22 Jul 1861
Marriage Place: St. James Church Parish, Dudley, Worcester, England
Father: John Smart
Spouse: James Clarke
FHL Film Number: 1470599
Reference ID: Item 1 p79 #158