ARC TBD - Edwin Toye's Ladies (b1860)

[NickToye]

Ok, been advised to start a new thread on Edwin Toye's ladies.

http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/tr ... =364851621

I know he was married to Ellen Toye and she is my maternal ancestor, however I also know that he didn't stay with her.

Whether or not they divorced or not, I have no evidence for that, however on Ellen Toye's death certificate in 1921 it mentions she is the wife of Edward Toye (or Edwin). It also states in Ellen's 1911 census that she is married. It also states that she had 4 children, but 1 died - but I guess that is another thread. Interestingly Ellen states on the 1901 census when she was in the workhouse that she was a widow. Perhaps she was bitter (we have a court report that she was beaten by him), but then couldn't let go.

Now in 1901 census we have Edwin living with a Georgina and she was noted as his spouse.
His age and job (Bricklayer) backup this being the Edwin who was married to Ellen.

1901 20 ct 2 ? Smith St Birmingham
Edwin Toye head married 39 bricklayer b Netherton
Georgina Toye wife married 29 b Scotland

In 1911 census Edwin is living with Florence A b1872, and is noted as married.
There is also 3 children Fanny 12, Edwin 4, Marriann G 1.

1911 6 bk 23 denmark st Aston Manor B'ham
Edwin Toye Head married 49 13 years married 3 children 3 living Bricklayer
Florence A could be an M 39 married
Fanny Toye dau 12
Edwin Toye son 4
Marion G Toye dau 1
all born Birmingham


So first thing comes to mind here, Fanny is 12, but wasn't living with Edwin in 1901 census, plus I have no record of her in any 1901 census. So maybe this is a child by Florence A's previous relationship.

The death certificate of Edwin (snr) has M G Toye as witness on certificate. Which is his daughter, who is 26 an unmarried - is that unusual?

So to summarise, I have some questions.

1. Who is Georgina?
2. Who is Florence?
3. Could they be the same person?
4. Why did Ellen's death certificate state she was still married?

[gardener]

If Ellen was in the workhouse in 1901 then she may have claimed to be a widow out of pride, or even just to simplify admittance - I presume that if she was known to have a husband then they might have wanted to get some support off him? I'm not sure how things worked.

This is the family I take it?

http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/fa ... oye-Family

If Georgina was born in Scotland then I doubt if she is the same person as Florence. And as you say there is young Fanny to account for. There looks to be a Fanny Bailey of the right age in 1901, with mother Florence, but I don't have access to the details.

Who informed for Ellen's death? Perhaps it was not known that Edwin had died?

I don't see that there is anything unusual in an unmarried daughter being present when her father died/soon after. She may have been caring for him when he died if she lived at home.

[gardener]

Have you tried looking for Georgina born Scotland and living in Birmingham area in other censuses? She may have been in the area for a while, or she may have continued to live there (if she did not die). Perhaps she married?

[NickToye]

If Ellen was in the workhouse in 1901 then she may have claimed to be a widow out of pride, or even just to simplify admittance - I presume that if she was known to have a husband then they might have wanted to get some support off him? I'm not sure how things worked.

This is the family I take it?

http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/fa ... oye-Family

If Georgina was born in Scotland then I doubt if she is the same person as Florence. And as you say there is young Fanny to account for. There looks to be a Fanny Bailey of the right age in 1901, with mother Florence, but I don't have access to the details.

Who informed for Ellen's death? Perhaps it was not known that Edwin had died?

I don't see that there is anything unusual in an unmarried daughter being present when her father died/soon after. She may have been caring for him when he died if she lived at home.

Yes that is the family.

From Ancestry:

1901 Census

George Bailey 27
Florence Bailey 29
Fanny Bailey 2
Edith Bailey 11 months
William Davies 29

Aston, Warwickshire

Informant for Ellen Toye's death is:

A J Waters (I think)
Occupier
18 Steam Road, Wordley, Kingswinford

She died 15 years before Edwin.

[Jimmy]

England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007 about Florence A Toye.
Name: Florence A Toye.
Birth Date: abt 1871.
Date of Registration: Dec 1947.
Age at Death: 76.
Registration District: Birmingham.
Inferred County: Warwickshire.
Volume: 9c.
Page: 92.

[Jimmy]

1901 Census.

George Bailey 27.
Florence Bailey 29. Wife.
Fanny Bailey 2.
Edith Bailey 11 months.
William Davies 29.

Aston, Warwickshire.

Deaths Mar 1902.
Bailey George. 27. Birmingham. 6d. 107.

[NickToye]

Very interesting.

This George Bailey link is just to confirm where Fanny came from, although its semi-important I suppose.

George Bailey though, wasn't he in It's A Wonderful Life?

[NickToye]

Ok I've had a look on BMD for the birth of Fanny (or Francis) Bailey, and the only one I can find is a Francis J Bailey registered in Harborne. HAR/109/468.

I couldn't find a marriage between George and Florence.

[Northern Lass]

wot about the births of the kids in 1911

and the electoral regis in 1935

Ellen b 1913 mother Morris...

1935....
Name: Edwin Toye
Year: 1935
Ward or Division/Constituency: Aston
Street Address: 6 court 5 DENMARK STREET
Residence Place: Birmingham

With
Florence Ada Toye
Miriam Gertrude Toye
Ellen Toye

we know that is same family cos of address matching in 1911 and 1935

[Northern Lass]

Here is Miriams birth
Births Sep 1909
Toye Miriam Gertrude Aston 6d 320

and then an Ellen that is a possible mothers maiden name morris

Births Dec 1913
Toye Ellen Morris Aston 6d 1062

Births Dec 1906
TOYE Edwin Aston 6d 356


might be an idea to send for miriams birth?

[Northern Lass]

possible for a Florence Ada morris
Births Mar 1871
Morris Florence Ada Birmingham 6d 57

[Northern Lass]

do you want this moved to Brickwalls Nick?

Dont think we can do more without maybe certifs?

[Jimmy]

Just found this,

Name: Mirian Gerturde Toye.
Birth Date: 4 May 1909.
Baptism Date: 30 May 1909.
Baptism Place: Birmingham, St Stephen, Warwickshire, England.
Father: Edwin Toye. Bricklayer.
Mother: Florence Taylor.
Reference Number: DRO 32.
Archive Roll: 627.

Address 5/3 Farm St.

From Ancestry,
All Birmingham, England, Baptisms, 1813-1912.

[Northern Lass]

good find Jimmy

So does that mean that that ellen with mothers maiden name Morris is another Ellen?

[Jimmy]

I would look at the image if I was you, it do's not actually say Taylor on the image.