The Emancipation of Women

[Rob]

I put this on the football thread but i feel it should have a thread of its own!!!
What shall i call it? I know!!

If i'm honest i don't like the idea of women in football but we have to move on in life and that decision with the Torres goal was spot on!!
If anyone watched Something For The Weekend last sunday they would have heard the Tim wotisname and the Scouse chef being chauvanistic! I think personally that a lot of men are afraid to voice their real feelings on " Women in Football!!
Sparky lets hope Birmingham win tonight if only for my mate Winston who's been a bit in the dumps lately but i think he's going through "Penopause" !!

Rob

[SRD]

I can't see the point in disqualifying perfectly able people simply because of their sex, race, sexual preference etc. Surely what matters is their ability to do whatever job they are given to do as well as anyone else. I would, however, recognise that, due to traditional ways of doing things, that some may not be able to carry out duties as well as others, in which case I think that extra effort, and money where necessary, should be expended to train such unfortunate people to fulfill the roles that tradition has denied them, so I think we ought to club together to provide housekeeping lessons for Rob.

[MarkCDodd]

There will always be jobs where relevant experience will preclude one or the other gender.

These positions tends to become gender specific and people are often surprised and a little uncomfortable to find the opposite gender than normal in place.

So whenever I see a woman in a male oriented position I first look to see if she has the quaifications to be there or chosen as a "novelty" or to appease some feminist backlash.

Thankfully the vaste majority have earned their place fair and square but you still the occasions where you can't help think they were chosen on gender.

Reverse discrimination is you want to think of it that way.

Take each on their merit and let them sink or swim according to their own abilities.

Gender should have nothing to do with that decision.

But it is perfectly OK to feel a bit "odd" about finding the opposite gender than what you are used to in a position.

They have just sacked the first female "Australian Rules" TV football commentator after two years of doing what I thought was a fairly good job.

The debate about wether it was performance or gender has been going on for a while...

[gardener]

So whenever I see a woman in a male oriented position I first look to see if she has the quaifications to be there or chosen as a "novelty" or to appease some feminist backlash.

.

How sad! You should not be thinking either of those things actually. Do you query the qualifications of every single man that you come across?
The question is "Is this person doing a good job?". Simple

[MarkCDodd]

Here we go....bending the written word to suit your own theory rather than read what was actually said.

Did I say I do not judge every person?

Take the football commentator for instance.

All football commentators are judged by those who listen to them.

Are they knowledgeable of the game?

Are they accurate and can keep up with the flow of one of the fastest moving games in the world?

Logically, if a female in such as position fails to do either or no better than males who could have done the job then you must ask "Was she chosen on gender and why?"

So I judge ALL people on their ability to do their assigned job.

The fact is, when somebody is the opposite gender to the usual in a position, there are other considerations beyond ability that may have influenced the decision to employ them.

Same as if you saw a family member given a position over somebody else. Was is nepotism or ability?

[snoopysue]

They're considering a law in Denmark to ensure that 40% of top jobs such as directors etc are occupied by women!!
This will only result in some companies leaving Denmark if they feel that they are forced to employ women in these jobs. I'm all for equal opportunities but not if it forces companies to employ a second rate person.
I would prefer legislation that prevented anybody being discriminated against, regardless of their gender!

I remember when Labour were spouting on about a ministry for women - they lost any support I may have given them at that point! Where was the ministry for men?

[MarkCDodd]

Yes, the politically correct idiots tried that in Australia a few decades ago.

It did lead to better anti discrimination laws.

The most vocal opponents were professional women who did not want their achievements "cheapened" by a forced ratio.

They call the barriers based on gender "glass ceilings".

What tends to happen is if a woman breaks through the glass ceiling it shatters and other can follow.

In the last 20 years the number of women MPs in Australia has increased dramatically and beyond the proposed percentages that were to be enforced.

But it took a few pioneers who were first looked upon as a novelty but proved their worth via performance.

The fascination with having our first female prime minister lasted about five minutes before she was judged on the same criteria as her male counterparts.

A female dominated position that took a few years to make gender neutral was airline stewards.

For quite a while it was a novelty to find a male steward.

Same with child care workers and nurses.

So "glass ceilings" work both ways.

[snoopysue]

The whole point of emancipation of women is to give us equal opportunities, not to discriminate against men! So I agree with you Mark.

[SRD]

<snipped>

The fact is, when somebody is the opposite gender to the usual in a position, there are other considerations beyond ability that may have influenced the decision to employ them.
<snipped>

What do you mean by 'usual'? Isn't this the whole point, there is no reason why the vast majority of jobs shouldn't be done by either sex; men or women are no more innately or educationally positioned to be any better at the vast majority of jobs, so if there is a preponderance of one sex over another in any particular position it can only be because of prejudice, which is not only socially unfair but is also economically disastrous. The only failures I have heard recently at sports commentary have been male, for instance the ABC radio coverage of the ODIs has been awful with more coverage given to the music being played on the terraces, the hairstyles and dress sense of the presenters and who should have been picked for the forthcoming World Cup, which would be fine if they were also describing the play, but they're not. Whereas the excellent West Indian woman (who I understand also happens to be a successful barrister) who covers the Windies tours has been dropped simply because it is considered that men don't like to hear a woman commentating on sport.

It's simple; women should take their place in the forefront of what was once male dominated positions and men should shoulder their equal share of what were once considered women's duties in order for us to have an equal and free society and if that can't be achieved due to one section of society doing their damnedest to prevent it due to their own self-interest then it has to be legislated for in the same way that all iniquities in society have to be legislated for.

[MarkCDodd]

USUAL does not equal RIGHT.

It is USUAL for a F1 racing commentator or football commentator to be male.

Until there are a large number of females in the field, any female in such an occupation is UNUSUAL.

The argument on wether or not equality should exist has absolutely nothing to do with how the status quo is perceived.

Observing and commenting on the status quo does not make it right or wrong or indicate your support for change or otherwise.

I have given no indication that the disparity in some jobs should continue.

Lets look at discrimination from the male viewpoint.

Anything to do with looking after children is almost a no-go area for males.

Every male is considered a pedophile unless proven otherwise.

The discrimination against male child care workers is palpable and taking a position in the field is a danger to the male involved.

Women, and I would say the vast majority, question the motives of any male that would like to work in a child care centre or kindergarden.

In an era where we are supposed to be more interested in children and family life we find ourselves constantly under suspicion.

Ask any father who has taken their kids to the playground or swimming pool.

Many women there immediately think you are on the prowl and a danger to the young ones.

I was even asked to remove my sunglasses at a swimming centre once because they thought I was hiding behind them to perve on the kids!

I have had women stare at me all the way from the swings to my car when taking my girls back home.

I used to look after abused children 24 hours a day as a Cottage Parent but gave that up after perfectly innocent co-workers were accused of molestation with no proof, no evidence and no witness.

The percentage of male child care workers has actually decreased over the last decade as the discrimination sets in.

[SRD]

Long, long time ago, for a few months, I looked after a friend's five year old little girl of an afternoon, picking her up from school, taking her home, giving her her tea before her mum came home from work, normally her Dad would do the days that her mum couldn't but he was working away so it was down to me. In those days I was even more scruffy than I am nowadays, I was roadying for a touring folk band, living from hand to mouth and dossing where I could and the first day I turned up to collect her there was distinct hostility from the Mums clustered around the school gates (the school had a strict policy of 'No parents inside the gates unless with an appointment'). When the girl I was responsible for came out of school, saw me, squealed with delight and rushed headlong into my arms demanding to be hoisted onto my shoulders (our usual style of greeting) the hostility rose several notches.
It was a RC school and the headmasters of such establishments were held in a reverence that was only just beneath that of the priest and several notches above the Pope so the mothers were more more than a little gobsmacked when the headmaster, who always came out at school end to have a few words of encouragement for some pupils, a little telling off for others and maybe catch a parent that he wanted a word with, called out 'Simon, come in.' and gave me a hug and slapped me on the back. What they didn't know was that he frequently stood in as either guitarist or caller for the band I roadied for. Over the following weeks, as that pattern was repeated, the hostility didn't diminish, but the roots of it changed from fear to jealousy.

[snoopysue]

It almost looks as though this thread should change it's name to "The Emancipation of Men"!

Not that I disagree, we've seen it here too, everytime there is raised a suspicion of anything approaching an indecent act at a nursery then all men in that proffession are judged to be the same!
But that's the same with all proffesions and work places - there has been a case here at a hospital where some doctors were writing "secret codes" in patients notes that they weren't to be resuscitated if they had a heart attack. The problem as I see it was not so much what they had written, but more the fact that they hadn't discussed it with the patients or their relatives! The codes were abbreviations of normal hospital language (which is written using specific terms to reduce mistakes!).
We know from experience that this piece of news will make an aweful lot of patients (and their families) nervous unneccesarily. It makes their recovery harder as well, because they're under more stress!!!

What I'm getting at is it's not a sexist issue, the media tells about an incident that they assess has public interest, and make the more innocent parts of the story seem suspicious which really detract from the main point (in my opinion!) and everybody who is working in this area, or happens to have the same sex as the person in question is deemed to be the same! It's not sexism it's ignorance and half knowledge! Racism comes under this too!!!

[MarkCDodd]

Its sexism.

We have had several cases in the last twelve months where female teachers have molested their students and a female kinder teacher making child porno.

The public reaction was muted compared to equivalent male offenders.

[Antie Em]

Waaaaayyyyy Haaaayyyy Snoopy - Couldn't agree more. Love to think that it will all stop someday.

I have four sisters, two are company directors, and the two others are HR Managers in Global companies, and I had my own business for a long while. Five out of Five girlies in one family aint bad. It took a lot of hard work and determination to get where they are now and I know they all had occasions when they had to work that little bit harder because of their gender. My dad was the proudest dad on the planet.

Nicest thing I've heard in ages was when my grandson was telling me about his mate Gagendeep. When I asked him which one was Gagendeep in the playground - he didn't mention colour, but that's him with the turban on his head.

My grandchildren are half cypriot and half english, so a lovely olive colour. Elisabeth's best friend is half asian and half english, we take them swimming on a Saturday and they often get taken for sisters. They're both happy with this and the question of race is never even considered. How lovely is that.

[snoopysue]

I have four sisters, two are company directors, and the two others are HR Managers in Global companies, and I had my own business for a long while. Five out of Five girlies in one family aint bad.

Nicest thing I've heard in ages was when my grandson was telling me about his mate Gagendeep. When I asked him which one was Gagendeep in the playground - he didn't mention colour, but that's him with the turban on his head.
My grandchildren are half cypriot and half english, so a lovely olive colour. Elisabeth's best friend is half asian and half english, we take them swimming on a Saturday and they often get taken for sisters. They're both happy with this and the question of race is never even considered. How lovely is that.

Good for you and your sisters!
It's good to hear that youngsters today can live side by side reagrdless (and maybe in spite of) their differences!