Possible birth in Russia

[gardener]

1871
Grimsargh

Jane Turner head wid 39 charwoman
Joseph ditto son unm 7 Grimsargh
Margaret ditto dau 5 ditto
Mary J ditto dau 3 ditto
Maud Smithies boarder 10 Blackburn
Frederick ditto 9 ditto


1881
Grimsargh
Jane Turner head wid 48 shop keeper Chorley
Margaret ditto dau unm 15 cotton winder Preston
Mary Jane ditto dau 13 ditto ditto
Alice Maud Mary Smithies boarder unm 20 cotton winder Blackburn
Frederick Arthur ditto boarder unm 19 gardeners lab Blackburn
Alfred ditto boarder unm 15 farm lab Blackburn
Ada Jane Holmes boarder 8 scholar Preston

[Jimmy]

John Charles Dickinson Smithies
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1859
Age: 24
Father's Name: John Smithies
Spouse's name: Betsy Procter
Spouse's Age: 19
Spouse's Father's Name: John Procter
Marriage Date: 18 Jan 1883
Marriage Place: Blackburn, Lancashire, England.

That looks right to me.

[gardener]

1861 27, Nab Lane, Blackburn
DICKINSON, John Head Married M 41 1820 Joiner Brindle Lancashire
DICKINSON, Mary Wife Married F 57 1804 Blackburn Lancashire
DICKINSON, John Charles Son Unmarried M 3 1858 Blackburn Lancashire

John Charles Dickinson Smithies
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1859
Age: 24
Father's Name: John Smithies
Spouse's name: Betsy Procter
Spouse's Age: 19
Spouse's Father's Name: John Procter
Marriage Date: 18 Jan 1883
Marriage Place: Blackburn, Lancashire, England

I don't think these are the same people. John Charles Dickenson is with parents John and Mary in 1871 as well, and then I think married in 1881

1881
John C Dickinson head m 23 joiner Blackburn
Elizabeth A ditto wife 21
John R ditto son 2
Henry ditto son 1

so it must be another who is adopted in the 1881 census.

[gardener]

There is a marriage that might be interesting:

Mar qtr 1854 Blackburn

John Smithies and Margaret Dickinson (same page)

[Albatross365]

Wow, this is fast.

The 1883 marriage is correct (I think we have the marriage certificate already) as is the Wolf House Mill address entry. Those are known.

So it looks like there's another brother called Alfred.

Charles Edward Smithies is definitely not right....not that there's anything wrong with folk from Yorkshire.

Do they keep adoption records at the National Archives?

I'm just thinking that the Russia birth may not be out of the question what with the Russian Christening cup. Not sure how that would fit in.

I was wondering if the mother was a Dickinson it could explain the middle name.

If a child was born in Russia and then they came back not long after, would they register the birth over here as being in Russia?

[Jimmy]

There is a marriage that might be interesting:

Mar qtr 1854 Blackburn

John Smithies and Margaret Dickinson (same page)

JOHN SMITHIES.
MARGARET DICKINSON.
Marriage, 23 FEB 1854, Saint Mary, Blackburn, Lancashire.

[Jimmy]

Lancashire Marriage indexes 1854.
SMITHIES John, DICKINSON Margaret, Blackburn, St Mary the Virgin (Blackburn Cathedral). Blackburn CE12/17/477.

[Jimmy]

All ot these have mothers maiden of Dickinson.

From.

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1855.
SMITHIES William, B/59/74.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1856.
SMITHIES Lilian Margaret Elizabeth Alice. B/66/9.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1857.
SMITHIES Margaret. B/69/55

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1860.
SMITHIES Alice Maud Mary, B/85/41

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1861.
SMITHIES Frederick Arthur. B/92/95.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1863.
SMITHIES Herbert. B/101/56.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1864.
SMITHIES Mary. B/107/72.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1865.
SMITHIES Alfred. B/113/20.

[gardener]

Wow, this is fast.

The 1883 marriage is correct (I think we have the marriage certificate already) as is the Wolf House Mill address entry. Those are known.

So it looks like there's another brother called Alfred.

I'm just thinking that the Russia birth may not be out of the question what with the Russian Christening cup. Not sure how that would fit in.

I was wondering if the mother was a Dickinson it could explain the middle name.

If a child was born in Russia and then they came back not long after, would they register the birth over here as being in Russia?

If you have the 1883 marriage, what does it give as John's occupation?
I don't think a birth in Russia would be registered in England on return.
Does the Christening cup have an inscription?
This is very confusing!
How do you know that Maud is a sister? If that is sound information then getting her birth certificate would be very helpful.

[gardener]

Good job Jimmy!

I just can't fit Charles in to the mix!

[Albatross365]

Same occupation as 1901.
1881. Chipping, Lancashire.
William Dewhurst 56. Spindle & Fly manufactor.
Martha Dewhurst 60.
Charles Smithies 22. Adopted Son. Spindle & Fly Maker. born Blackburn.

Charles aka John Charles Dickinson Smithies took over the Dewhurst's business when they retired so he always was a Spindle & Fly Manufacturer

I know Maud is a sibling from my mother who mentioned it.

It doesn't help that people aren't noted on the censuses by their proper first name.

Will find out about the christening cup when my mother comes back from her long weekend. I think we might even have it...not sure.

Only working on this side of the family as the other side has multiple spellings of Sheppard in it and is a nightmare.

Turns out I didn't have the marriage certificate after all but the names are right

[gardener]

It doesn't help that people aren't noted on the censuses by their proper first name.

Not to mention their surnames!

How about this bunch?


1861
Higher Bank Farm, Blackburn
John Smith head 31 engineer Salesbury, Lancashire
Margaret ditto wife 33 Warrington, Cheshire
William ditto son 6 Blackburn
Elizabeth ditto 4 ditto
John C ditto son 2 Ireland, Belfast
Alice M ditto 10m Blackburn
Maria Buckley niece m 50 nurse
Dorothey Dodson 18 servant

The census says Smith but it could have been mistranscribed by the enumerator. The children's birth years fit the ones Jimmy found and if John Charles was born in Belfast it would explain why his birth does turn up. Not Russia though!

I'm not sure about these two. They fit together but I don't know if they fit with the 1861 entry. There is a Catherine Dickinson from a rich family in Blackburn but she does not seem to have been born in Cheshire so not sure about that either.

1851
Lark Hill, Blackburn
John Smithies head unm 21 Ironfounder employs 86 men Blackburn
Catherine ditto sister unm 25
James ditto bro unm 18 ironfounder
Frederick Richard Dean neph 5
Mary Mullen servant 20

1841
Flemmings Sq? Blackburn
Mary Smithies Sen 50 Ind n
Mary ditto 20 milliner y
Cathr ditto 17 y
Margaret ditto 14 y
Jn Smithies 11 y
James ditto 7 y
Elizth ditto 5 y

Added
Actually, think it may be right.
The IGI has bapts at Salesbury for Catherine Smithies 1825, Margaret Smithies 1827, and Elizabeth Smithies 1836 (and Ellen 1815) all with parents Richard and Mary. And in the 1861 census John "Smith" is born Salesbury.

[Jimmy]

1871. Cheetham, Manchester.
Joseph Cathcart 43.
William Cathcart 14.
Rosa Ann Cathcart 11.
Mary Cathcart 9.
Jane Hulmes 55.
John Smithies 39. Boarder. something (Oil) Blackmoor, Lancs.
Margaret Smithies 41. Boarder. Blackmoor, Lancs.

[Albatross365]

Had some excellent news.

Just spoken with my grandmother who confirmed that the Smithies living in Grimsargh are the correct ones.

1881
Grimsargh
Jane Turner head wid 48 shop keeper Chorley
Margaret ditto dau unm 15 cotton winder Preston
Mary Jane ditto dau 13 ditto ditto
Alice Maud Mary Smithies boarder unm 20 cotton winder Blackburn
Frederick Arthur ditto boarder unm 19 gardeners lab Blackburn
Alfred ditto boarder unm 15 farm lab Blackburn
Ada Jane Holmes boarder 8 scholar Preston

She knew Maud and she thought the other one she knew was called Frederick or Alfred until I told her both existed.

Will have to get some birth certificates now.

Unfortunately the christening cup has been lost in the family. It was with my great-uncle in Chipping but no-one knoews what happened to it after he died.

It could be with my second cousins but we've lost contact with them.

[Maths girl]

Had some excellent news.

Just spoken with my grandmother who confirmed that the Smithies living in Grimsargh are the correct ones.

She knew Maud and she thought the other one she knew was called Frederick or Alfred until I told her both existed.

This is good news.


I think this is an example of the way they always tell family historians to start ie with older relatives and what they know -- having said that until you know a bit it is not always easy to know what are the right questions to ask. I found getting an old map of the area where my Mum used to live was helpful as she started saying "Cox's Lane -- that was where...etc"

You might like to try it with your Grandmother if you get a chance and see what comes out.