Hi
I am looking to trace a member of the family - Frederick Winterbottom - who until now was unknown from the rest because he was born between 1881 and 1891 but the family do not appear on the 1891 Census.
They re-appear on the 1901 census when he is listed for the first time aged 15 living with the family at 104 Drake Street Rochdale along with his mother Ellen and brother Thomas, and sisters Mary and Sarah. His father John it would appear passed away in previous years.
The trail for Fred has run cold as I do not have access to 1911 Census and wonder if he too has passed away. My ultimate interest is to find out if supposing he was still around did he serve in the First World War and if so start to find the details therein.
Any thoughts / suggestions much appreciated
*Archive?* Uncle Fred - where art thou!
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Annie
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
???
1911 : 671 Oldham Road Failsworth
WINTERBOTTOM, John Head Married M 47 1864 Mill Manager Lancashire Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Ellen Wife Married
23 years F 49 1862 Lancashire Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Mary A Daughter Single F 22 1889 Lancashire Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Frederick Son M 14 1897 School Russia Resident
Annie
1911 : 671 Oldham Road Failsworth
WINTERBOTTOM, John Head Married M 47 1864 Mill Manager Lancashire Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Ellen Wife Married
23 years F 49 1862 Lancashire Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Mary A Daughter Single F 22 1889 Lancashire Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Frederick Son M 14 1897 School Russia Resident
Annie
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Annie
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
Not at 104 Drake St Rochdale.
1911 : 104 Drake St R'dle
National Archive Reference: RG14PN24625 RG78PN1412 RD470 SD3 ED7 SN47
Reg. District: Rochdale Sub District: Castleton No 2
Parish: Rochdale Enum. District: 7
Address: 104 Drake St R'dle County: Lancashire
SHARP, James Head Married M 59 1852 Vegetarian Store Yorks Hebden Bridge
SHARP, Mary Ann Wife Married
35 years F 59 1852 Yorks Hebden Bridge
SHARP, Eleanor Daughter Single F 34 1877 Cert: Elementary School Teacher Lancs Rochdale
DAVIES, Mabel Adopted Daughter Single F 20 1891 Assistant In Shop Rhode Island America
Annie
1911 : 104 Drake St R'dle
National Archive Reference: RG14PN24625 RG78PN1412 RD470 SD3 ED7 SN47
Reg. District: Rochdale Sub District: Castleton No 2
Parish: Rochdale Enum. District: 7
Address: 104 Drake St R'dle County: Lancashire
SHARP, James Head Married M 59 1852 Vegetarian Store Yorks Hebden Bridge
SHARP, Mary Ann Wife Married
35 years F 59 1852 Yorks Hebden Bridge
SHARP, Eleanor Daughter Single F 34 1877 Cert: Elementary School Teacher Lancs Rochdale
DAVIES, Mabel Adopted Daughter Single F 20 1891 Assistant In Shop Rhode Island America
Annie
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Northern Lass
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
Moved to Gen discussion
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David W
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
Annie
Many thanks for your help with the 1911 Census which shows that they were no longer at 104 Drake Street. John and Ellen were born in 1846 & 1844 respectively, so that rules out the 1911 entries under their name I assume, and the entry for Fred is too young because he would have been around 25 at the 1911 Census.
Mary was born in 1879 and so by 1911 would have been about 32 years of age, so that eliminates the Mary on the listing, am I therefore to assume he must have passed away?
Many thanks for your help with the 1911 Census which shows that they were no longer at 104 Drake Street. John and Ellen were born in 1846 & 1844 respectively, so that rules out the 1911 entries under their name I assume, and the entry for Fred is too young because he would have been around 25 at the 1911 Census.
Mary was born in 1879 and so by 1911 would have been about 32 years of age, so that eliminates the Mary on the listing, am I therefore to assume he must have passed away?
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gardener
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
His older sister Esther seems to have married in 1889 and I can't find her or husband in 1891 either though they are present in 1901.
Was Rochdale some sort of black hole in 1891?
Was Rochdale some sort of black hole in 1891?
Last edited by gardener on Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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MarkCDodd
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
A Fred Winterbottom of the right age left for the USA in 1909.
Looking at the arrival mainifest...not him.
Travelling with brother Albert and mother Sarah and alread yhas a brother James in the USA.
Looking at the arrival mainifest...not him.
Travelling with brother Albert and mother Sarah and alread yhas a brother James in the USA.
Black Holes happen when God divides by zero.
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Annie
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
Could Frederick have married ? I've looked at all the Lancashire that I think could be him , there are more Fredericks but they have different parents.
1911 census transcription details for: 80 Alfred St Shaw Near Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Fred Head Married
1 years M 23 1888 Piecer Cotton Mule Lancs Shaw
WINTERBOTTOM, Florence Wife Married F 22 1889 Lancs Shaw
WINTERBOTTOM, Joseph Brother Single M 18 1893 Packer Cotton Cop Yarn Lancs Shaw
WINTERBOTTOM, Frank Brother M 11 1900 School Lancs Shaw
Annie
1911 census transcription details for: 80 Alfred St Shaw Near Oldham
WINTERBOTTOM, Fred Head Married
1 years M 23 1888 Piecer Cotton Mule Lancs Shaw
WINTERBOTTOM, Florence Wife Married F 22 1889 Lancs Shaw
WINTERBOTTOM, Joseph Brother Single M 18 1893 Packer Cotton Cop Yarn Lancs Shaw
WINTERBOTTOM, Frank Brother M 11 1900 School Lancs Shaw
Annie
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MarkCDodd
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
I look at the Fred and Florence. His WW1 record is intact and isn't him.
Black Holes happen when God divides by zero.
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gardener
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
So you have him, as you say, in 1901
1901
Rochdale
104 Drake St
Sarah A Spencer, head, s, 60, confectioner
Mary Holdsworth ,wid, m, 52, housekeeper
Ellen Winterbottom, wid, 58
Thomas ditto,son,s,27
Mary E ditto,dau,s,22
Sarah A ditto,dau,s,19
Fredk ditto,son,15
And this is them in 1881
1881
Castleton, Rochdale
No 45 School Lane
John Winterbottom,head,m,35, Yorkshire, Saddleworth
Ellen ditto,wife,m,35
Esther H ditto,dau,12
James ditto,son,9
Thomas ditto, son,7
Mary? E ditto, dau,2 [looks like Margt]
No 43 School Lane
Esther Spencer, wife,m, 70 [died 1883, Mar qtr, aged 71]
Walter ditto, head, m,70, shopkeeper
Sarah A ditto, dau,unm,42
Mary Holsworth, visitor, m,33
Walter ditto, visitor, 9
All born Rochdale apart from John.
Possible marriage in Rochdale district Ellen Spencer to John Winterbottom Mar qtr 1868
Births reg at Rochdale
Esther Hannah Sep qtr 1868
James Sep qtr 1871
Thomas Sep qtr 1873
Mary Elizabeth Mar qtr 1879
Sarah Ann Dec qtr 1881
Frank Mar qtr 1886 ??? no Frederick as far as I can see
James, Thomas, Mary E and Sarah A are in the IGI, baptised at St Chad's, along with John bapt 5 July 1876 (died perhaps as not in census).
I can't find Frederick in 1891, try as I will. I'm sure you have all these details already but I am posting them in case it helps someone find him in 1891 or 1911.
1901
Rochdale
104 Drake St
Sarah A Spencer, head, s, 60, confectioner
Mary Holdsworth ,wid, m, 52, housekeeper
Ellen Winterbottom, wid, 58
Thomas ditto,son,s,27
Mary E ditto,dau,s,22
Sarah A ditto,dau,s,19
Fredk ditto,son,15
And this is them in 1881
1881
Castleton, Rochdale
No 45 School Lane
John Winterbottom,head,m,35, Yorkshire, Saddleworth
Ellen ditto,wife,m,35
Esther H ditto,dau,12
James ditto,son,9
Thomas ditto, son,7
Mary? E ditto, dau,2 [looks like Margt]
No 43 School Lane
Esther Spencer, wife,m, 70 [died 1883, Mar qtr, aged 71]
Walter ditto, head, m,70, shopkeeper
Sarah A ditto, dau,unm,42
Mary Holsworth, visitor, m,33
Walter ditto, visitor, 9
All born Rochdale apart from John.
Possible marriage in Rochdale district Ellen Spencer to John Winterbottom Mar qtr 1868
Births reg at Rochdale
Esther Hannah Sep qtr 1868
James Sep qtr 1871
Thomas Sep qtr 1873
Mary Elizabeth Mar qtr 1879
Sarah Ann Dec qtr 1881
Frank Mar qtr 1886 ??? no Frederick as far as I can see
James, Thomas, Mary E and Sarah A are in the IGI, baptised at St Chad's, along with John bapt 5 July 1876 (died perhaps as not in census).
I can't find Frederick in 1891, try as I will. I'm sure you have all these details already but I am posting them in case it helps someone find him in 1891 or 1911.
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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David W
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
Many thanks everyone for your efforts, it is very much appreciated. The reason Frederick came on the scene late is that I could not find any of the family in the 1891 Census but they surface again in the 1901 record when Frederick first appears. The family are all Rochdale born except for John - Father, who came from the Saddleworth area of Oldham, Roundhill Farm in Greenfield to be exact. The comment about "Rochdale being a black hole in 1901 funnily enough had crossed my mind" but Fred is certainly a puzzle unless he died after 1901!
Many thanks once again
Many thanks once again
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gardener
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
I noticed this morning that School Lane (1881 census address) runs off Drake Street (1901 address) so it has to be possible that these people were in the same area in 1891.
Findmy past has an address search facility - can someone look at both addresses and see if the census is particularly hard to read or something?
Findmy past has an address search facility - can someone look at both addresses and see if the census is particularly hard to read or something?
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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Annie
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
1911 Address search for School Street and the images all look clear , but still can't see Frederick.
Address: 1 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
ALLEN, Thomas Head Married M 71 1840 Plasterer Derbyshire Derby
ALLEN, Mary Ann Wife Married
39 years F 57 1854 Cotton Sorter Ulster Belfast Ireland
Address: 2 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
HARRISON, Margaret Wife Married
18 years F 53 1858 Housework At Home Lancs Rochdale
HARRISON, Thomas Head Married M 54 1857 Unemployed Carpet Weaver Lancs Rochdale
Address: 3 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
HOYLE, James Head Married M 25 1886 Cotton Spinner Mule Rochdale Lancs
HOYLE, Elizabeth Wife Married F 27 1884 Cotton Weaver Rochdale Lanc
BROOKFIELD, Alice Boarder Single F 18 1893 Shop Girl Rochdale Lanc
BROOKFIELD, Isabella Boarder Single F 14 1897 Ring Doffer Rochdale Lanc
4 School Street Rochdale
WHATMOUGH, George Head Married M 49 1862 Ioiner And Builder Rochdale Lancs
Address: 5 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
CHAPMAN, John Head Married M 26 1885 Postman Manchester Lanc
CHAPMAN, Sarah Jane Wife Married
4 years F 25 1886 Home Duties Lanc Rochdale
CHAPMAN, Elizabeth Daughter F 4 1907 Lanc Rochdale
CHAPMAN, William Henry Son M 1 1910 Lanc Rochdale
MILES, James Boarder Single M 22 1889 Flannelatte Raiser Lanc Smithy Bridge
Address: 9 School Street Rochdale County: Lancashire
MOORE, Henry Head Married M 56 1855 Church Caretaker Lancashire Rochdale
MOORE, Elizabeth Alice Wife F 58 1853 Lancashire Rochdale
MOORE, Ethel Daughter Single F 26 1885 Woolen Weaver Lancashire Rochdale
MOORE, Mary Daughter Single F 22 1889 Tobacco Roll Maker Lancashire Rochdale
Address: 1 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
ALLEN, Thomas Head Married M 71 1840 Plasterer Derbyshire Derby
ALLEN, Mary Ann Wife Married
39 years F 57 1854 Cotton Sorter Ulster Belfast Ireland
Address: 2 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
HARRISON, Margaret Wife Married
18 years F 53 1858 Housework At Home Lancs Rochdale
HARRISON, Thomas Head Married M 54 1857 Unemployed Carpet Weaver Lancs Rochdale
Address: 3 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
HOYLE, James Head Married M 25 1886 Cotton Spinner Mule Rochdale Lancs
HOYLE, Elizabeth Wife Married F 27 1884 Cotton Weaver Rochdale Lanc
BROOKFIELD, Alice Boarder Single F 18 1893 Shop Girl Rochdale Lanc
BROOKFIELD, Isabella Boarder Single F 14 1897 Ring Doffer Rochdale Lanc
4 School Street Rochdale
WHATMOUGH, George Head Married M 49 1862 Ioiner And Builder Rochdale Lancs
Address: 5 School St Rochdale County: Lancashire
CHAPMAN, John Head Married M 26 1885 Postman Manchester Lanc
CHAPMAN, Sarah Jane Wife Married
4 years F 25 1886 Home Duties Lanc Rochdale
CHAPMAN, Elizabeth Daughter F 4 1907 Lanc Rochdale
CHAPMAN, William Henry Son M 1 1910 Lanc Rochdale
MILES, James Boarder Single M 22 1889 Flannelatte Raiser Lanc Smithy Bridge
Address: 9 School Street Rochdale County: Lancashire
MOORE, Henry Head Married M 56 1855 Church Caretaker Lancashire Rochdale
MOORE, Elizabeth Alice Wife F 58 1853 Lancashire Rochdale
MOORE, Ethel Daughter Single F 26 1885 Woolen Weaver Lancashire Rochdale
MOORE, Mary Daughter Single F 22 1889 Tobacco Roll Maker Lancashire Rochdale
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Maths girl
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
gardener wrote:I can't find Frederick in 1891, try as I will. I'm sure you have all these details already but I am posting them in case it helps someone find him in 1891 or 1911.
Just wondering whether as the family appear at the bottom of the page in the 1891 census book Frederick got missed off accidentally -- there is a spare line as though maybe he wanted to go and check something but then forgot to go back and fill it in!
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gardener
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Re: Uncle Fred - where art thou!
Maths girl wrote:gardener wrote:I can't find Frederick in 1891, try as I will. I'm sure you have all these details already but I am posting them in case it helps someone find him in 1891 or 1911.
Just wondering whether as the family appear at the bottom of the page in the 1891 census book Frederick got missed off accidentally -- there is a spare line as though maybe he wanted to go and check something but then forgot to go back and fill it in!
Did you find the family in 1891? I can't find any of them
Who is head of the household in that entry Mathsgirl?"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell