Military history of Andrew Garven

[abkb781]

Hello all. I am new here and hoping to benefit from the community's collective expertise.

I have been researching a certain ancestor of mine named Andrew Garven. He has been very difficult to trace through time and upon discovering his daughter's 1840 parish marriage record I was delighted to see the occupation of the father listed as "soldier." He would have been about 55 years old at the time of his daughter's marriage though I can't be certain that he was even alive at the time. I assume the record is indicating that he was a soldier earlier on in life. He was born 'round about 1785, though this is a guess based on his wife's age and their date of marriage, so if my assumption is true he would have been of about the right age to serve during the Napoleonic Wars. This revelation got me fairly excited but I just don't know where I can go with my research from here.

I know very little about his life for certain other than the following:
-Married Russell Dunning (b. 13 Feb 1785 in Fadmoor, Yorkshire) at Saint Peters, Leeds 29 Sep 1806
-Their first daughter was baptised 17 Jan 1819 in Bridlington, Yorkshire
-Their second daughter was baptised 14 Feb 1824 in Bridlington, Yorkshire (though in later census returns she would list her birthplace as Fadmoor, Yorkshire where she lived)
-The 30 Apr 1840 marriage record of their first daughter (in Kirkby Moorside, Yorkshire) lists father's occupation as "soldier"
-The 3 Dec 1842 marriage record of their second daughter (in Kirkby Moorside, Yorkshire) lists father's occupation as "shopkeeper"
-He does not appear in any census returns
-His death is seemingly untraceable. Perhaps he died in the Army

Now that's all I know for sure, so you can see I have very little to go on in terms of finding out about his soldiering days. I also suspect he may have been born in or around Kilwinning, Ayrshire, Scotland based on his name and how many people of this name are from that area. So maybe he served in a Scottish regiment during the war and settled in Yorkshire afterwards.

Can anyone provide me with any guidance? I just don't know where to go from here. Any help would be very much appreciated

[FarSide]

Hi and welcome abkb781

Googled and found this

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cata ... ssmethod=5

Scope and content ANDREW GARVEN
Born [Not Known]
Served in 2nd Dragoons
Discharged aged [Not Known]
Original certificate of discharge missing. Residence or place where pension paid stated in document.
See film image 75
Covering dates 1821
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by The National Archives, Kew

[apowell]

Hi,

I've had a quick search to attempt to find out some information but it's going to be tricky but seems to be always the case when researching so far back

Farside could well have found Andrew's discharge papers held at Kew but frustratingly very little information is given on the cover page so I'm afraid you may need to obtain a copy to check the information which should confirm if this is your chap. A word of warning the information can be very basic and sometimes difficult to read so you may pay money for very little information If you check the link Farside gave this will tell you how to request a price for the records with out any obligation.

The 2nd Dragoons were also named 'The Royal Scots Greys' which may give you the Scottish connection and a very famous Regiment indeed who fought at the battle of Waterloo in 1815. The only information on the cover document given is 1821 which I assume gives us the date the pension was awarded and the year Andrew was discharged from the army. The dates fit perfectly with your chap but the only concern is that I've checked the Waterloo medal roll index and couldn't find Andrew Garven listed which is strange given that his Regiment fought at Waterloo. I also completed a full check on the Christian names of Andrew but still no luck It's possible he didn't go overseas with his Regiment maybe due to illness etc.

I think you'd need to confirm if this chap's records held at Kew match with your chaps before moving forward.

Regards
Adrian

[apowell]

Hi again,

I've managed to find somemore information on the Andrew Garven's discharge papers that Farside found out for you.

Scope and content ANDREW GARVIN alias ANDREW GARVEN
Born KILMAS, Ayrshire
Served in 2nd Dragoons; 7th Royal Veteran Battalion
Discharged aged 44 after 21 years 6 months of service
See film image 131
Covering dates 1821
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by The National Archives, Kew

If my maths is correct this Andrew was born abt 1777 which doesn't fit exactly with your chap and the above information may explain why he isn't listed on the Waterloo medal index. He may have been transferred to the 7th Royal Veteran Battalion prior to the Battle of Waterloo becasue these Battalions were made up of soldiers who were deemed not fit enough or to old to serve in the front line and were usually stationed in the Uk.

If this isn't your chap I'm afraid no other pension or discharge papers are listed for Andrew Garven on the National Archive or that I could find anyway

What do you think?

Regards
Adrian

[apowell]

Hi,

I've managed to find a little more information which confirms my suspicious that Andrew was transferred to the Veteran Battalion prior to the battle of Waterloo 1815 hence the reason he didn't receive the Waterloo medal.

Scope and content ANDREW GARVAN
Born KILMARS, Ayrshire
Served in 2nd Dragoons
Discharged aged 38
Covering dates 1794-1814
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years, This series is currently undergoing digitisation. Access to certain pieces will be disrupted over the next 3 years and advance ordering of this series is not possible during this time. Please check with us that the pieces that you wish to consult are not affected before you travel.

This confirms he first signed up in 1794 and was transferred from the 2nd Dragoons in 1814 which confirms his date of birth abt 1774-1775.

This chap may not be yours because if your relative was born abt 1785 he would have only been 9 years of age in 1794.

Regards
Adrian

[apowell]

Hi,

I've tried really hard to find more information that would help you in you research but it's proving a real nightmare

The records found for Andrew Garvin from the National Archive don't seem to fit your relatives date of birth (unlikely to be your relative) and no other discharge papers for Andrew Garvin are listed on their catalogue. This is a real setback because to my knowledge the National Archives are the main source of information on soldiers' pension and discharge prior to the First World War.

What's interesting from your post was that you stated they married in 1806 and their first known child was baptised 17 Jan 1819 in Bridlington, Yorkshire which gives us a 13 year gap from when they married. This may indicate that Andrew was serving abroad for sometime with the Army hence no children were born in that period or his wife was stationed with him abroad and children may have been born overseas. We know Andrew didn't see action at the Battle of Waterloo because he doesn't appear on the Waterloo medal roll index but the period he may have been overseas 1806-1819 would put him in the thick of the Napoleonic wars ( Peninsula Campaign 1807-1814).

It's possible Andrew was already serving in the Army and maybe stationed near Leeds, Yorkshire when he met his future wife because it's doubtful he would have travelled down from Scotland otherwise. I noticed that alot of Garvens also originated from Ireland which could also be a possible place of birth for Andrew but Scotland seems most likely but both places were strong recruitment areas for the Army.

I don't think he died while in the Army based on the fact that the second daughters marriage entry stated father's profession 'shopkeeper' which suggests to me that he had left the Army to set up maybe in a small business possibly from his army pension monies.

Maybe look at the following:

1. Army Births overseas for Garvens from 1806-1821.
2. Check the original marriage entry for Andrew for any information on his Regiment or profession.
3. Search the UK census for Garvens born 1806-1821 overseas for any possible connections.
4. Research local Regiments that were stationed or recruiting around Yorkshire at the time of Andrew's marriage.
5. Peninsula Campaign 1807-1814 medal was issued to troops who served with Wellington's Army so that could be another avenue to explore but I've no idea if any records were kept of who received it.

These are long shots but desperate times call for desperate measures

Regards
Adrian

[MarkCDodd]

He was a Sergeant Major.

Died on the 3rd October 1824 and Buried on the 7th at Bridlington

He was 47 at the time of his death so that give a birth of 1777 which fits in with the Soldier found in the Archives.

Give me your e-mail address in a PM and I will send you the burial records.

No Garvin/Garven births listed for the 2nd or 7th for the right time period.

[apowell]

Hi,

Mark comes to the rescue and saves the day

abkb781

So the discharge information previously given is you relatives and this will hopefully allow you to find out lots more information. The link Farside gave you for the National Archive gives information on the ways to obtain records and prices. If you click the request button on the document page you can request without obligation a price for them to copy and post to you and you will have to do this for all 3 different documents listed for Andrews discharge.

If you google 2nd Dragoons of Royal Scots Greys you get lots of information.

Your relative just missed out on the Battle of Waterloo being transferred to the Veteran Battalion the year before. My x5 Great Grandfather joined the 66th Regiment of Foot 3 days before Waterloo and also missed the Battle but joined the Regiment on St Helena Island in 1816 and was part of the garrison that guarded Napoleon Bonaparte.

Well done everyone

Regards
Adrian

[MarkCDodd]

Make sure you get a quote for the items seperately.

If you ask for all three on a single quote you may run foul of the alloted time they can freely find the record and count the pages.

[abkb781]

Wow thank you all very much for looking into this so diligently.

I have since been to the National Archives (I live in London so it's not much trouble) and I have had a look at his discharge papers. What a fantastic document this turned out to be. It even gives me his height, eye colour, and all sorts of great bits of info. There are bits I can't read which is unfortunate but I've had it photocopied and taken it home and I re-inspect it every now and again.

There is one inconsistency I find a bit curious. apowell brought to my attention an apparent discharge record from 1914. I wasn't aware of this before going to Kew so I didn't check out the full record. The record I checked and had photocopied was a discharge document from 1821. This document doesn't make any mention of any absence from service in 1914. It states that he was in the 2nd Dragoons from enlistment July 1799 to November 1819, at which point he was transferred to the 7th Vet Battalion. It states that he served in that regiment until his discharge on 4 January 1821, being sent home to Bridlington due to deteriorating vision.

I plan on going to the Archives again in the near future to further investigate this. I'd like to check the muster rolls to see exactly where he was stationed, especially around 1814 and 1815. I read somewhere that about a third of the 2nd Dragoons stayed in England during the Battle of Waterloo so I imagine that's why he's not on the medal roll. Then again, there is the possibility that there was some kind of discharge in 1814.

If any of you have any further light to shed on the matter I'd love to hear it. I'm really grateful for your research and sorry it's taken so long to reply.

Cheers,
David

[MarkCDodd]

First place I always look is the National Burial Index.

This is available at many libraries or you can search it with FindMyPast or buy a copy (which I have done).

This is what the NBI says....

First name(s): Andrew
Last name: GARVEN
Date of burial: 7 Oct 1824
Age at death: 47
Calculated year of birth: 1777
Place of burial: Hull
Dedication: Quaker Monthly Meeting
County: Yorkshire (East Riding)
Notes:
Hull Quaker Monthly Meeting:
Denomination: Quaker
Coverage: 1813 - 1837
Number of entries: 141

Record source: National Burial Index
Data provider: Yorkshire Archaeological Society Family History Section

This indicates Andrew was a Quaker so looking in normal parish records will get you nowhere.

Since Quakers are pacifists I find it interesting he was in the armed services.

You would need to look in the non-conformist records to find more details.

They are available at the National archives or, if you have a subscription to TheGenealogist, available online.

These are the two records I found for his burial (I have e-mailed you the register entries).

Piece Description Register of Burials belonging to the Monthly Meeting of Owstwick and Cave, becoming the Monthly Meeting of Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire from 1776 to 1837
TNA Reference RG6 / Piece 871 / Folio 19
[Chapel/Registry]
Full Name Andrew Garven
Date of Burial 7 October 1824
Place of Burial Bridlington
Date of Birth
Date of Death 3 October 1824
Age 47
Profession Ex- Sergeant Major
Relation
Description Ex- Sergeant Major
Place of Abode Bridlington
Parish of Abode
County of Abode
Registration Date
Registration Town/County Kingston Upon Hull, Yorkshire
Ceremony Performed by
Husband/Father
Husband's/Father's Profession
Wife/Mother -
Cause of death
Grave Number
Undertaker

And

Piece Description Register of Burials belonging to the Quarterly Meeting of Yorkshire from 1824 to 1827
TNA Reference RG6 / Piece 913 / Folio 90
[Chapel/Registry]
Full Name Andrew Garven
Date of Burial 7 October 1824
Place of Burial Bridlington
Date of Birth
Date of Death 3 October 1824
Age 47
Profession
Relation
Description
Place of Abode
Parish of Abode Bridlington
County of Abode Yorkshire
Registration Date
Registration Town/County Yorkshire
Ceremony Performed by Joseph Pristman
Husband/Father
Husband's/Father's Profession
Wife/Mother -
Cause of death
Grave Number
Undertaker

[apowell]

Hi David,

This is really interesting to me because I'm also in the process of researching two relatives who were soldiers at the time of Andrew.

I've never visited the National Archive and i'm not really very clued up about the catalogues etc however the information I gave about Andrews's service with the 2nd Dragoons from 1794-1814 seems to be correct and the reference is:

WO Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Division within WO Records of the Royal Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals
WO 97 Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents
Subseries within WO 97 1760-1854: discharge papers arranged by regiment, but each described at item level. (WO 97/1-1271)
WO 97/51 Cavalry of the Line: Gab - Gat
Record Summary
Scope and content ANDREW GARVAN
Born KILMARS, Ayrshire
Served in 2nd Dragoons
Discharged aged 38
Covering dates 1794-1814
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years, This series is currently undergoing digitisation. Access to certain pieces will be disrupted over the next 3 years and advance ordering of this series is not possible during this time. Please check with us that the pieces that you wish to consult are not affected before you travel.
Held by The National Archives, Kew

When you went to Kew did you also check the above document for information about the covering dates of 1794-1814 ? Maybe it was a duplicate of the other documents you have already obtained.

The 2nd Dragoons fought at the Battle of Waterloo but I've searched and searched 'Men of the Battle of Waterloo medal Roll' for any Andrew Garvan and I've also searched all the Andrews listed but with no luck. Maybe he was sick or remained on home duty and I'm sure if he was awarded the Waterloo medal wouldn't it have stated on his discharge papers?

I would contact the The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards museum and enquire about Andrew service with them and they maybe able to advise why he's not listed on the 'Waterloo Medal Roll Index'.

The official abbreviation for The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards is SCOTS DG
Contact Details
Home Headquarters
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards
(Carabiniers & Greys)
The Castle
EDINBURGH
EH1 2YT
Telephone: 0131 310 5102
Fax: 0131 310 5101
e-mail: info@scotsdgmuseum.com


Regards
Adrian

[abkb781]

Well look at that, he was a Quaker. Funny, you don't think of Scots as Quakers but maybe he converted after living in Yorkshire. I wonder if I'd be able to find his burial place. I've just read a little about Quakers and apparently they don't typically use tombstones to mark their burial place so that could make things difficult. Also I couldn't easily find a Quaker burying-ground in the Bridlington area so that's a problem in itself.

Pertaining to his Army career, I think I will have to head to Kew again in the next little while. I'll be sure to check this other document that says that he served from 1794-1814. That's very curious considering the document I found states that he served from 1799-1821 and gives him a birth year of 1777. If the former is correct then he would only have been about 17 upon enlistment. Maybe that was typical in the day, I'm not sure. I'll also check the muster rolls, which I expect might be a tedious process. This should tell me definitively whether he was in Belgium in 1815. Right now I suspect he was either on some kind of leap of absence in 1815 and returned shortly afterwards, or maybe he was still serving in 1815 but was one of the many soldiers in the regiment who were simply told to remain in England while the others gave Boney a thrashing.

Hopefully the ansers will reveal themselves soon. Thanks for your continued help guys. Do let me know if you stumble upon any further information.

David

[Maths girl]

Also I couldn't easily find a Quaker burying-ground in the Bridlington area so that's a problem in itself.
David

As I understand it the Quakers were very good at keeping records and I would expect that would include Burial Grounds -- the local archives might be able to point you in the right direction or even the modern day local meeting house might have some info. Maybe not the actual plot but a likely burial ground.

[peterd]

you could try contacting them

http://www.s113871194.websitehome.co.uk ... tings.html

scarborough the nearest to bridlington


archieves at university of leeds

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/library/spcoll/q ... akdes1.htm