WARREN Joseph, EDWARDS Mary

[Sandra]

The reply I recieved from the person who checked Charles birth records says - The birth register merely tells you the name of the child, and the area of the birth, and the quarter of the year they were born in. I have checked the one you mentioned, but I cannot find him on any census, and I think he died in 1854.

Births Dec 1851
WARREN Joseph Grantham 14 403

I don't know if this helps. Sandra

[Maths girl]

Thank you very much for all the information, you have gone to a lot of trouble. I am afraid I still cannot see a positive connection but it does rule out some of the families.

This family tree - Ancestry tree (Price Family Tree, Owner: damekellyholmes) William Charles WARREN 1858 Could this be your Charles?...
I don't know, could be... there is an age difference of 13 years. If William Charles Warren married Kate Coghlan on 1 June 1884 at Lambeth, London, than it is unlikely he is my Charles, as he would have been married in England and then immigrated to Aust in 1887 and remarried here in 1900. He was 88yrs old when he died in Aust in 1960, if he was the above William Charles Warren that would have made him 101yrs when he died, I doubt if it is the same person, he looked an old man when I saw him last and that was in the 1950's.

I will contact - Tree = My Family File

Owner:
 MarkMcLaughlin1974


and see what he has on the Warren family.

Sandra
You have to remember that the only fact that you can be certain of is when he died because that is within living memory - the rest of the "facts" that you have quoted rely on the accuracy of the reporter and the scribe. - We have all come across errors in census/bmd records etc.

How old he was depends on when he was born and that is the elusive fact that you are trying to pin down!

As to marrying in England before emmigrating - he wouldn't have been the only man to have left a wife in England and married another in Australia!

[MarkCDodd]

Prior to Federation in 1901, it wasn't unusual for somebody to flee a marriage in one "Colony" and marry in another. Leaving a wife behind inthe UK would be just as easy.

He is listed a a deck hand on the ship's manifest?

If so, you may be able to find a crew agreement record in the British National Archives.

These often have some interesting details such a next of kin and normal address etc.

[MarkCDodd]

There are about 10 towns in Leicestershire that would fall within the registration district of Gratham. There ae dozens in Lincolnshire.

His birth may have been in Gratham Lincolshire at one point and Gratham Leicestershire at another. Census Counties are also "flexible" as boundaries change.

I went from being born in Birmingham, Warwickshire to Sandwell, West Midlands but the hospital hasn't moved

[MarkCDodd]

Your Mary Hooper is Mother In Law to a William Hopper in 1901.

I assume then this Mary A is her daughter.

1901 Census

Hopper William 37 Head Coachman Not Domestic Dover, Kent
Hopper Mary A 39 Wife Witham, Somerset
Hopper Healby C E 5 Son Kensington, London
Hooper Mary 68 Mother In Law Living On Own Means Witham, Somerset
Hopper Robert 25 Brother House Furnishing Porter Dover, Kent

[Sandra]

I spent hours today trying to find a Crew agreement for Charles but no luck so far. I did find that that I had the ships name wrong it was Urmston Grange, it left Gladstone/ Bowen Queensland with a cargo of meat and it was in Sydney on 24/8/1897 with Joseph Bennett as Master and 3 passengers, it dispatched from Sydney on 27/8/1897 for London and arrived in London on the 27th October 1897 but I have not been able to find where Charles left the ship, yet. I have requested a copy of the ships crew for Aug 1897 from "Mariners and Ships in Australian Waters" that may tell me more.

Hopper Mary A 39 Wife Witham, Somerset census 1901 only had one son Healby (5) and none of the Warren's staying in the same house could be right. She could be Charles's mother - unlikely as she would have been only 10yrs old in 1871, assuming that is when Charles was born - see I am trying to think along the same lines as you are.

Hooper Mary 68 Mother In Law Living On Own Means Witham, Somerset census 1901 - would mean that she would have been 38yrs approx when Charles was born - this look good. There must be more but it seems likely this could be a connection.

[Maths girl]

Hopper Mary A 39 Wife Witham, Somerset census 1901 only had one son Healby (5) and none of the Warren's staying in the same house could be right. She could be Charles's mother - unlikely as she would have been only 10yrs old in 1871, assuming that is when Charles was born - see I am trying to think along the same lines as you are.

You are definitely going in the right direction here Sandra - I go with trust nothing until at least two pieces of evidence back it up and then think it is a definite maybe!!

[MarkCDodd]

If he was a "stow away" like the family rumours suggest, then he may have got away with it at the ages of 15 to 17.

If he stowed away at 27 he would not have been treated well.

If he did stow away he may have been recruited into the crew on the voyage. He would probably not be on the embarkation manifest as a passenger or crewman.

He would be on the debarkation manifest.

[Sandra]

I think this document was the "debarkation manifest", as it was stamped Shipping Masters Department Sydney, Bros & Smith, Custom House Agents, Circular Quay. 24/8/1897. But you are right it may not be the right 'Charles' I am only grabbing at straws now.

[Sandra]

Hopper Mary A 39 Wife Witham, Somerset census 1901 only had one son Healby (5) and none of the Warren's staying in the same house could be right. She could be Charles's mother - unlikely as she would have been only 10yrs old in 1871, assuming that is when Charles was born - see I am trying to think along the same lines as you are.

You are definitely going in the right direction here Sandra - I go with trust nothing until at least two pieces of evidence back it up and then think it is a definite maybe!!

I have been trying to go back on this line and in the Witham Friary website there are 18 baptism from 1769 to 1815 with parents Thomas and Mary Edwards. There is Maria Edwards baptised 19-5-1812 at St Mary the Virgin, Witham Friary, parents Thomas and Mary, do you think this is Mary Edwards's mother?

[Sandra]

This is a reply I received from damekellyholmes on Ancestry. What do you think?

Joseph Warren was born in about 1832 in Witham Friary, Somerset, England the eldest of four illegitamate children born to Sarah Warren, he was baptised along with his younger brother George on 4th November 1838, he had another brother named Henry who was born in 1840 and a sister Jane born in 1850, I believe that due to the age gaps between the four siblings their Fathers were all different men.
I found a persons tree on Ancestry that stated that Joseph's Father was a man born in Witham Friary in 1810 under that theory it could only be one of six men, a Joseph Massey, John Hues, Benjamin Parson, John Butler, James Taylor and John Cress.
Sarah was born in 1812 in Witham Friary to William Warren (1772-1851) and Sylvia Stickler (1775-1850), she was one of four children William (b1799, who in 1827 married Jane Way in WF), John (b1815) and Benjamin (b1817).
William I believe to have been born in Aisholt, Somerset to a Francis and Ann Warren, his wife Sylvia was born in Witham Friary one of five daughters Sarah (b1762), Susannah (b1766), Salome (b1770) and Sophia (1777) born to a James (b1740-1798) and Betty Stickler (b1739-1805).
James was also born in Witham Friary to a David Stickler (b1720-?) and Susannah Williams (b1717-?).
David Stickler was aslo born in Witham Friary to a William Stickler, David's wife Susannah was born in Witham Friary to a David Williams (b1702-?) and his wife Mary Chislett.
Mary Edwards was born in 1833 in Witham Friary to an Ag Labourer Father Charles Edwards and his wife Maria Ashford, she was one of eleven children George (b1834), Elizabeth (b1836), John (b1838), Benjamine (b1841), Charles (1841), Thomas (1845), William (1845-1920), Charles (1848), Fanney (1851) and Jane (1853).
Charles Edwards was born in 1813 in Witham Friary to a James Edwards and Kimie, he had one sister Mary Ann.
Maria Ashford was born in 1813 in Witham Friary to Emanuel Ashford and Hannah Parsons both of Witham Friary.
Emanuel was born in 1783 to an Edward Ashford and his wife Rachel George.
Edward Ashford was born in 1749 in South Brewham, Somerset to a Edward Ashford and Michol Charlton.
Edward Ashford was born in 1718 in South Bewham to Emanuel Ashford and his wife Mary Grey.
Emanuel Ashford was born in 1694 in South Brewham to an Emanuel Ashford and his wife Eleanor, both of whom were from South Breham and were born at about 1670.
Rachel George was born in Warminster, Wiltshire in 1749 to John George and Betty Eacott, Betty was born on 15th February 1748 in Warminster, Wiltshire to Edward Eacott and Mary Rogers, who were both of Warminster, Wiltshire.
Mary Rogers was the daughter of Thomas Rogers and Mary Curtis.
Hannah Parsons was born in 1781 in Witham Friary to John Parsons and Hannah Clarke, who had been born in 1752 in WF to James Clarke and Judith Battle, James was born in WF in 1729 to Owen and Mary Clarke.

Joseph and Mary Warren left Witham Friary in about 1868 and moved to the village of Potterne in Wiltshire where they then stayed until about 1872 when they moved to Pontypool in Monmouthshire, all his life Joseph worked as a Ag Labourer but then in the 1901 census he is living with his wife Mary son Benjamin and two Grandchildren at Habodearch Farm in Abersychan, Pontypool which he owned and had a servant, I believe the money came from Mary's Father Charles Edwards who also worked as a Labourer until the 1971 census where he is nowhere to be found and his wife Maria is living with Joseph and Mary in Potterne, she also moved to Wales with them where she died in 1874, in the 1891 census her husband Charles Edwards is living with Joseph and Mary and stated as living by his own means.
Joseph lived until September 1917 when he died in Abersychan, Monmouthshire a year after the birth of my Grandfather Leslie James Warren.

[MarkCDodd]

Cool, narrow down the potential father to only six!!!!!

This is where DNA comes in handy...

A lot of effort was put in by DameKellyHolmes but I would chase down the records to substantiate it all.

Often with bastards, it is worth chasing up the Church Warden or Bishops parish notes, or whatever you can find from the Parish Chest, as payments under the Bastadry laws are often listed.

Somebody paying under the bastadry law is not guaranteed to be the biological father. In fact, a large number are farmers who are accused as their payment is higher than even wealth lords in many parishes so they tended to get accused more often

[Sandra]

I think this could be the family, the wicked stepmother is there, but need more proof. I am trying to trace the twins 'damekellyholmes' has them as "unknown", checking the burials for Wilham Friary 1813-1900 there is a Benjamin Edward WARREN baptised 9-9-1870 died 14-9-1870 born Potterne Willshire died at 3 mths. It looks like there could have been another Benjamin Edwards born 1871 (as per 'damekellyholmes' account) and he was living with Joseph and Mary in 1901 at Habodearch Farm in Abersychan, Pontypool . Who was the other twin?

This is a reply I received from damekellyholmes on Ancestry. What do you think?

Joseph Warren was born in about 1832 in Witham Friary, Somerset, England the eldest of four illegitamate children born to Sarah Warren, he was baptised along with his younger brother George on 4th November 1838, he had another brother named Henry who was born in 1840 and a sister Jane born in 1850, I believe that due to the age gaps between the four siblings their Fathers were all different men.
I found a persons tree on Ancestry that stated that Joseph's Father was a man born in Witham Friary in 1810 under that theory it could only be one of six men, a Joseph Massey, John Hues, Benjamin Parson, John Butler, James Taylor and John Cress.
Sarah was born in 1812 in Witham Friary to William Warren (1772-1851) and Sylvia Stickler (1775-1850), she was one of four children William (b1799, who in 1827 married Jane Way in WF), John (b1815) and Benjamin (b1817).
William I believe to have been born in Aisholt, Somerset to a Francis and Ann Warren, his wife Sylvia was born in Witham Friary one of five daughters Sarah (b1762), Susannah (b1766), Salome (b1770) and Sophia (1777) born to a James (b1740-1798) and Betty Stickler (b1739-1805).
James was also born in Witham Friary to a David Stickler (b1720-?) and Susannah Williams (b1717-?).
David Stickler was aslo born in Witham Friary to a William Stickler, David's wife Susannah was born in Witham Friary to a David Williams (b1702-?) and his wife Mary Chislett.
Mary Edwards was born in 1833 in Witham Friary to an Ag Labourer Father Charles Edwards and his wife Maria Ashford, she was one of eleven children George (b1834), Elizabeth (b1836), John (b1838), Benjamine (b1841), Charles (1841), Thomas (1845), William (1845-1920), Charles (1848), Fanney (1851) and Jane (1853).
Charles Edwards was born in 1813 in Witham Friary to a James Edwards and Kimie, he had one sister Mary Ann.
Maria Ashford was born in 1813 in Witham Friary to Emanuel Ashford and Hannah Parsons both of Witham Friary.
Emanuel was born in 1783 to an Edward Ashford and his wife Rachel George.
Edward Ashford was born in 1749 in South Brewham, Somerset to a Edward Ashford and Michol Charlton.
Edward Ashford was born in 1718 in South Bewham to Emanuel Ashford and his wife Mary Grey.
Emanuel Ashford was born in 1694 in South Brewham to an Emanuel Ashford and his wife Eleanor, both of whom were from South Breham and were born at about 1670.
Rachel George was born in Warminster, Wiltshire in 1749 to John George and Betty Eacott, Betty was born on 15th February 1748 in Warminster, Wiltshire to Edward Eacott and Mary Rogers, who were both of Warminster, Wiltshire.
Mary Rogers was the daughter of Thomas Rogers and Mary Curtis.
Hannah Parsons was born in 1781 in Witham Friary to John Parsons and Hannah Clarke, who had been born in 1752 in WF to James Clarke and Judith Battle, James was born in WF in 1729 to Owen and Mary Clarke.

Joseph and Mary Warren left Witham Friary in about 1868 and moved to the village of Potterne in Wiltshire where they then stayed until about 1872 when they moved to Pontypool in Monmouthshire, all his life Joseph worked as a Ag Labourer but then in the 1901 census he is living with his wife Mary son Benjamin and two Grandchildren at Habodearch Farm in Abersychan, Pontypool which he owned and had a servant, I believe the money came from Mary's Father Charles Edwards who also worked as a Labourer until the 1971 census where he is nowhere to be found and his wife Maria is living with Joseph and Mary in Potterne, she also moved to Wales with them where she died in 1874, in the 1891 census her husband Charles Edwards is living with Joseph and Mary and stated as living by his own means.
Joseph lived until September 1917 when he died in Abersychan, Monmouthshire a year after the birth of my Grandfather Leslie James Warren.

[Maths girl]

I think this could be the family, the wicked stepmother is there, but need more proof. I am trying to trace the twins 'damekellyholmes' has them as "unknown", checking the burials for Wilham Friary 1813-1900 there is a Benjamin Edward WARREN baptised 9-9-1870 died 14-9-1870 born Potterne Willshire died at 3 mths. It looks like there could have been another Benjamin Edwards born 1871 (as per 'damekellyholmes' account) and he was living with Joseph and Mary in 1901 at Habodearch Farm in Abersychan, Pontypool . Who was the other twin?

The only other Warren registered in the same quarter in Wiltshire as Benjamin Edward is
Jessie May Warren 1870 Apr-May-Jun Somerset, Wiltshire and she was born in the district of Bradford and appears on the 1871 census so there doesn't appear to have been a registered twin for Benjamin.

A twin could have been dead at birth so they didn't register it - Question? if they were born and died very quickly did they always report it if it cost money to register?

Twin birth certificates often have the time on them to differentiate the eldest (in case of inheritance problems etc later) but they may not have done this if the second baby was not registered

[mallosa]

A twin could have been dead at birth so they didn't register it - Question? if they were born and died very quickly did they always report it if it cost money to register?

Twin birth certificates often have the time on them to differentiate the eldest (in case of inheritance problems etc later) but they may not have done this if the second baby was not registered

Yes that seems to have been the case with my Grandfather. It appears that William had a twin, according to his Birth Certificate which gives his time of birth as 11am.