WARREN Joseph, EDWARDS Mary

[Maths girl]

These two might to be worth following up if nothing else is known about the siblings as it seems to have been a rahter split family

1891 First Division Royal Marine Light Infantry b
Name: Joseph Warren
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Gender: Male
Where born: Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire, England

1891 56 Brunswick Street Luton
Ellen Knight 26 Straw Hat Machinist
Robert Knight 5 Scholar
Beatrice Knight 3 Scholar
William Warren 19 Lodger Iron Moulder, born Huntingdon

It is difficult to try to find the parents/siblings without a few more details eg dates/census entries that you are sure of

[Sandra]

I am sorry I don't have dates for the siblings. The family tales say from one source - "that the time he left England, two brothers went to Canada and one sister was living in England". Another source says "Charles Warren came to Australia when he was in his early teens
His brothers William and Joseph went by boat to Canada (both where younger than Charles (it appears-very brave adventurers) after their father had died and Mary married again, he(Charles) was supposed to stay but he did not get on with the new dad". Another source said "Grandfather Warren came out about 1892 had 4 brothers who were killed in 1st World War and one sister in England and one sister in Canada ?? Parents were Joseph Warren and Mary Edwards." All Charles's children have now passed away so I cannot get any more information.
I am assuming that the years of birth for the siblings must have been between 1868 and 1880. The only positive is Charles date of birth was 12-1-1872 or 1871. Is there anyway to find out when Joseph died and where, as he must have died before 1872. Is it possible to find Canadian immigration records and do they show parents names?

[MarkCDodd]

I have access to all the immigrations records but Warren is too common a surname to be able to positively identify without more information.

The marriage occured in Frome, Somerset in 1857 so the census to start from is 1861.

The occupation of Joseph is crucial in tracking them down. If he is a journeyman or merchant seaman or in the armed forces then they could be living anywhere.

Let me try and find some people who fit the family rumours....

[MarkCDodd]

If her mother is a Marie Hooper then that ties in with the wedding in Somerset as in 1851 a Marie Hooper runs a farm of 55 acres in Hentsbridge, which is very near to Frome.

Frome itself is almost all non-conformist and that can be a help as thier records are usually far more detailed.

I simply do nothave enough definate information to go on.

I suggest you purchase the wedding certificate and we can go from there...

[Sandra]

I did not think of looking for Joseph's occupation - he was a Tanner on Charles's death certificate and a Farmer on Charles's marriage certificate. Thanks so much for all your help.

[MarkCDodd]

So I think the marriage between Joseph and Mary is this one....

Marriages Jun 1857
Warren Joseph Frome 5c 967
Edwards Mary Frome 5c 967

I think the household in 1861 is at Quarry Hill Cottage, Witham Friary, Frome, Somerset.


WARREN, Joseph Head Married M 27 1834 Labourer Witham Friary
Somerset
WARREN, Mary Wife Married F 24 1837 Labourers Wife Witham Friary
Somerset
WARREN, William Son M 3 1858 Scholar Witham Friary
Somerset
WARREN, George Son M 1 1860 Scholar Witham Friary
Somerset
WARREN, Henry Son M 0 (2M) 1861 Witham Friary
Somerset
WHITE, Emily Visitor F 10 1851 Cordwinders Daughter Frome
Somerset

[Sandra]

Gee.. thats great, it looks like it could be. I wonder where they were in 1871. Charles must have been born after the 1871 census but still should show on the 1881 census as he did not leave England until 1887.

[Sandra]

I don't know if I am doing this right but the Warren family from Witham, Friary, show up on the 1881, 1891, and 1901 census. I have a feeling that Joseph died before 1887 that is why Charles came to Australia, so Joseph would not be in the picture in 1891 or 1901 would he?

[MarkCDodd]

After doing this for a while you realise that family rumours are just that.

People would rather have something "dramatic" than mundane to explain family events.

It may be that Charles had a falling out with his biological father, not some yet to be discovered step father.

Don't dismiss factual evidence with family rumours.

I have had plenty of relatives on my wifes side jump onto boats at a young age for the chance of a new life in Australia.

Sometimes they never contacted their English relaties ever again.

Quite a few of them died with "Unknown" for their mother and father on the death records.

[Sandra]

Opps.. sorry. I guess the next step is to get the marriage certificate for -
Marriages Jun 1857
Warren Joseph Frome 5c 967
Edwards Mary Frome 5c 967
How do I do that? I have not seen an English marriage certificate what information will it show us that will link this family to Charles?

[Sandra]

Hi, I found the baptisms for the below at the below address for Joseph and Mary as parents from Witham
William Charles 4-4-1858
George 25-12-1859
Henry John 21-5-1861
and Emily Francis 7-7-1867


http://www.fromeresearch.org.uk/

Same site -
Marriages at St Mary's, Witham Friary, 1838-1900
30 Apr 1857
Joseph
WARREN
(X) Full age, Bch otp, Labourer
[blank] , [blank]
William WHITE

Banns
Mary
EDWARDS
Full age, Sp otp, Domestic Servant
Charles EDWARDS, Labourer
Sarah PALMER

Does this look like the same family?

[MarkCDodd]

The Marriage Certificates will not link them to Charles but it will provide clues for the previous generation.

You need to get Charles birth cert to confirm the name of his parents or at least find a Baptism/Chistening.

That is the family on the census.

See if they have a death/burial for Joseph.

[Sandra]

No, I cannot find a death / burial for Joseph living at Witham Friary. You suggested I get Charles birth certificate but I don't know where he was born??? I am getting a head ache, I seem to be going around in circles. I really do appreciate all your help, at least it is making me see things from a different point of view. Sandra

[Maths girl]

http://www.fromeresearch.org.uk/

Same site -
Marriages at St Mary's, Witham Friary, 1838-1900
30 Apr 1857
Joseph
WARREN
(X) Full age, Bch otp, Labourer
[blank] , [blank]
William WHITE

Banns
Mary
EDWARDS
Full age, Sp otp, Domestic Servant
Charles EDWARDS, Labourer
Sarah PALMER

Does this look like the same family?

This looks like a full transcription so the Marriage certificate would probably not tell you anything further - it would just be good to see the "real thing" if they turn out to be the right family!

The only positive is Charles date of birth was 12-1-1872 or 1871.

Sandra why are you so positive about this fact when the rest seems to be based on rumours?

Have I followed this correctly that you and Mark have now dismissed the Lincolnshire connection given that you are looking at Frome in Somerset?

[Maths girl]

Hi, I found the baptisms for the below at the below address for Joseph and Mary as parents from Witham
William Charles 4-4-1858
George 25-12-1859
Henry John 21-5-1861
and Emily Francis 7-7-1867


http://www.fromeresearch.org.uk/

On the same site add baptisms for the same name parents but different addresses of
29 Mar 1863 Alice Mary
4 Feb 1866 Hannah Maria
9 Sep 1870 Benjamin Edward

These appear to fill in some of the "gaps" in the family dates but I am concerned about whether this is Charles family as they have obviously been careful to get all their children baptised - why not Charles - unless they had moved away from the area before 1871/2.