*Arc pending more info * --John Murphy - Boat Builder.

[MarkCDodd]

Both Dennis and I had John Murphy born 1866 in Oldbury as having parents Patrick and Catherine, both from Ireland.

Sometimes, due to problems with my thought processes caused by narcolpesy, I can miss the odvious.

When I received the Marriage Certificate for John Murphy - Charlotte Waterhouse several months ago I missed the fact that his father is listed as Thomas, not Patrick!

I know John Murphy was a Boat Builder. This is listed on my Grandmother's, Mary Ann Murphy, wedding and birth certificates.

It is also mentioned on his wedding certificate and the 1901 Census.

He is dead by the 1911 census and if he is father of the last child, William Murphy who was 12 weeks old in the 1911 census, then John would have to be alive in 1910.

There is a death in the last quarter 1910 in Ecclesall Bierlow that matches.

So, without wanting to wait weeks for the certificates, I need to confirm John's parents.

I believe his birth to be last quarter 1866, West Bromwich, 6b 696

His marriage to Charlotte Waterhouse is 15th April 1892 in the Registry Office, West Brom. 6b 1253

I believe his death to be last quarter, 1910, Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire 9c 276

There is a 1891 census entry in Oldbury that lists his mother as a Catherine from Rathdrum, Wicklow, Ireland which matches the mother we have in BCC.

Waht I can't find is evidence of his father being a Thomas.

[grangers14]

What was his fathers occupation on the marriage cert?

[MarkCDodd]

Labourer.

[grangers14]

Do the witness names help?
So you think he died in Yorkshire and his family, were they in yorkshire 1911 too?

[grangers14]

I've just been reading on BCC on the family.
http://www.bcconnections.tribalpages.co ... =455577151

It was thar rhere was a family in Bradford son John father Thomas

[Dennis]

Interesting, Mark. It's not made any easier by the 1871 Oldbury census giving some odd ages for Patrick and Catherine's children. But the "boat builder" element there seems to pinpoint the right family.

[gardener]

It would be nice to have the census details on here or BCC.
Patrick Murphy who died in 1887 is down as aged 56 on FBMD. So born abt 1831 rather than 1821 as BCC says. Perhaps the census has something else?

Is the main problem that John's marriage cert says father is Thomas but Hannah's says Patrick?

[gardener]

In fact I am bemused entirely as Family search has

1881
Patrick MURPHY Head M Male 42 Ireland Labourer
Catherine MURPHY Wife M Female 40 Ireland
Patrick MURPHY Son U Male 18 Ireland Boat Builder
Mary MURPHY Daur Female 14 Oldbury, Worcester, England Domestic Servant
Kate MURPHY Daur Female 15 Oldbury, Worcester, England
John MURPHY Son Male 9 Oldbury, Worcester, England
Annie MURPHY Daur Female 12 Oldbury, Worcester, England


and the ages are a bit awash compared to BCC. For example Patrick jnr is down as born 1850 which would make him 31 in 1881, not 18.

[grangers14]

Another odd! Heads going mad with odd things this week!
May be if Dennis or Mark could start from scratch, the earliest or most recent they can put. We can may be try to add up?
Family lore can be well out too, certs are only as good as the informants knowledge, census can be out too.
Just doesnt add up
Jo

[MarkCDodd]

Don't worry about the odd ages on the census...I had that all figured out. It is all in one of the archived threads.....

As a matter of fact, it was because I was going into BCC to fix up the family that I thought I would double check everything.

I have many Irish families who play around with places of birth and ages. It is only when you get to the 1901 and 1911 census does the truth start to appear.

Can the Registry Office records be checked?

Charlotte would have been 3 or 4 months pregnant at the time of the marriage. (Married mid April and my Grandma was born late October).

Hence the Registry Office marriage?

Witness look like Andrew Waterhouse, Charlotte's brother, and a Sarah something or other.....

One census return from 1871 kind of fits except the places of birth....

Address: Lichfield Street Court, Birmingham
County: Warwickshire

MURPHY, Thomas Head M 37 1834 Ireland Brick Layer
MURPHY, Catherine Wife F 36 1835 Ireland
MURPHY, William Son M 11 1860 Hampshire
MURPHY, Thomas Son M 9 1862 Birmingham, Warwickshire
MURPHY, John Son M 7 1864 Birmingham, Warwickshire
MURPHY, Ann Daughter F 5 1866 Birmingham, Warwickshire
MURPHY, Catherine Daughter F 2 1869 Birmingham, Warwickshire

In the 1911 census all of the family are in the Oldbury area except my Grandma, Mary Ann, who is working as a domestic servant in Birmingham.

[Northern Lass]

Can't check regis office certifs

[gardener]

I still think it would be good to have the census details on BCC - especially in a case like this when the ages vary from year to year.
If anyone wants to see the old thread it is here
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2509&hilit=murphy&start=15

[MarkCDodd]

I can't see it being a Royal Stuff Up at the Registry Office.

Patrick Murphy, who we think is John's dad, was pushing up daisy's by the time of this wedding. The Thomas on the wedding cert is also deceased.

Patrick and Thomas do not sound alike, even with a broad Irish accent.

Also, both John and Charlotte were literate and would have corrected a mistake on the form before signing it.

So I can only assume that Thomas was the name supplied by John.

I was hoping some of the Murphy relatives I have been speaking to (including some 1st cousins in Tasmania that I recently discovered) might have had other wedding/birth certificates but nope, out of luck!

Probably the next best option is the christening records from the Roman Catholic church....

[Dennis]

If we're talking about the baptismal records from St Francis Xavier's RC church, Oldbury, Mark, they may now be in the diocesan archives at St Chad's RC cathedral, Birmingham. I went through the marriage records at St Francis's some years ago, all in Latin, but they were due to be moved out to the archives soon. The Christian names were latinized, so, for example, it's difficult to know whether "Maria" was Maria or Mary, John becomes "Johannes" etc.

[MarkCDodd]

They have been noved to the archives.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=1480-p211&cid=14#14