invalid battalion 1861

[sparkstopper]

Hi P.P...

Just read your post from earlier this month,
Regarding the mis-spelling ....Make certain that
it is Shrewsbury and not SHAWBURY...Best of luck.

[prairie_princess]

Thanks Adrian and sparkstopper for your help and suggestions to my posts, I just came back form London a month ago and won't be back for a few years so going to the NA won't be an option for awhile! When I was in London I did visit the NA and with their assistance was told that William's documents were more than likely with the British library and that's where I found his pension/military records for the invalid regiment. Unfortunately I didn't find anything on his death due to time restrictions. Below are a few of the answers to your questions and a few other questions that you may be able to assists with:

1. William and Sophia were in the Parish of Ross in the 1841 census. I believe William departed from Liverpool in 1842. The document reads:

Chunar 5 March 1861
Report that No 3221 Gunner William Brad by trade a baker born in the parish of__________ in or near the town of Shrusburry in this county of Salop was attested for the Bengal Regiment of Artillery at Liverpool in the county of Solop on the 28th January 1862 at this age of 25........he is entitled to recon amounts to 20yrs 340 days......than it goes on to list his rank and years of service for each rank.

Question: On the 28th day of January 1862? The way it reads it sounds like that was his joining date in 62 and not a release date? William was born in 1817/18 and would have been 25 at the time of joining, am I just interrupting it wrong?

[Maths girl]

Chunar 5 March 1861
Report that No 3221 Gunner William Brad by trade a baker born in the parish of__________ in or near the town of Shrusburry in this county of Salop was attested for the Bengal Regiment of Artillery at Liverpool in the county of Solop on the 28th January 1862 at this age of 25........he is entitled to recon amounts to 20yrs 340 days......than it goes on to list his rank and years of service for each rank.

Question: On the 28th day of January 1862? The way it reads it sounds like that was his joining date in 62 and not a release date? William was born in 1817/18 and would have been 25 at the time of joining, am I just interrupting it wrong?

was attested for - is a phrase I ahve not met before

what does this phrase mean ? is it joining up or commenting on how much pension he should receive?

[prairie_princess]

part II

my appoligies, the Chunar document joining date is January 28th 1842 and not 62......4 looks like a 6

The census conducted in April 1861 shows Sophia as head, married with her son George in the Ross Parish.

William's release document dated April 27 and reads in part: is discharged from Her Majesty Indian Military Forces admitten to pension for ??? by ??? 108 of 12 July/61........Registered No. 290 Adjutant Generals Office, Fort William, Calcutta (?)

All documents are signed between March 05, 1861 and the latest is April 2, 1861

Question: Obviously William is in Fort William at the time of the 1861 England census and Sophia is widowed by 1871. So could William have died coming back to England? How long and what transportation was used to get back to England. Would there be a record of the deaths that occurred during the return to England? Would the Ross Parish have these records? (I couldn't find anything in the BMD or BL)

Lastly,
Adrian I think your right abt the Indian mutiny, one document shows Williams rank, promotion and demotion(?) on the side is written " force during the mutiny in 1857/58" I can't make out the entirety.
sparkstopper, it's definitely Shrewsbury

Thanks again PP

[prairie_princess]

Maths girl

clearly says " was attested for the Bengal regiment"

Do you know what G.O.G.G No 108 of February 1861....would stand for? General of the ???

[Maths girl]

Maths girl

clearly says " was attested for the Bengal regiment"

I think you misunderstood me -I wasn't disputing what it said just asking for information about what the phrase "attested for" meant - hope you can help

[apowell]

Hi,

Wow this is starting to get really interesting thanks to you hard work in finding out further information

I'm sure the 28th, January 1862 reads 1842 not 1862 (maybe the writing is abit iffy and you've misread the number) because it just doesn't make sense for a number of reasons:

1.William would have been 45 years of age to enlist 1862.

2. William isn't on the census 1861 with his family so we assume he's still serving in India and would have no reason to return to re enlist at Liverpool.

3. The pension award states 20 years and 340 days which minus from 1862 gives us roughly 1842 which matches the other information of his enlistment of 1842.

4. It states he was attested on the 28th, January 1862 at 25 years of age. That would make his birth 1836 but we know it was abt 1817 and add 25 to 1817 gives us 1842 (if my maths is correct ).

When you say you have his rank and years of service could you post these for us to look at because if his rank is Gunner or Bombardier etc we'll know for sure he served only with the Royal Artillery.

The Bengal Regiment of Royal Artillery fits in perfectly with my suggestion of his service during the Mutiny because the Regiment played a major role during the conflict.

Bengal Regiment of Royal Artillery
56 (Olpherts) Headquarters Battery RA has its origins in India as 5 Company, 3 Battalion, The Bengal Artillery formed on 02 June 1786. The Indian mutiny of 1857 played a significant part in Battery history. During the first relief of Lucknow, Captain Olpherts or "Hellfire Jack" as he was known, won the Victoria Cross for conspicuous gallantry; he charged the enemy on horseback and captured two rebel guns that were pouring fire onto the flanks of the advancing forces. To commemorate this distinction, on 19 October 1966, the honour title "OLPHERTS" was awarded to 56 Headquarter Battery RA.

Regards
Adrian

[prairie_princess]

apowell, here is the rank listing that I have:

Gunner 15 yrs 320 days
Bombardier 36 days
Corporal 260 days
Sergeant 4 years 89 days Reduced back to gunner by the G.O.C.C (or G.O.G.G?)
This is the doc. With the writing on the side that shows the mutiny 57/58. I'm not sure what the G.O.C.C or G.O.G.G is and why he would have been demoted. This doc is dated march 1861.

William was listed in India as a gunner and sergeant at the time of the birth of his children (Sophia and George) as 1st battalion art.

Hope this helps, PP

[apowell]

Hi,

I've found a little more for you about the G.O.C.C (or G.O.G.G?)

G.O.C.C
General Order by Commander in Chief

G.O.G.G
General Order of Governor General

I think on your document it must have been G.O.C.C so maybe he'd been charged with some sort of misconduct and lost his rank which was issued via a G.O.C.C.

Also the rank of Gunner :In the East India Company Artillery and Royal Artillery, an ordinary artilleryman equivalent in rank to a Private in the Infantry and a Trooper in the Cavalry.

Regards
Adrian

[apowell]

Hi,

I think you already mentioned about another daughter but I found this while researching:

Record details

Name: Matilda BRAD
Event type: Birth
Date: 26 Oct
Year: 1844
Location: Agra
Parents: William, Gnr, 1st Btn Art; Sophia
Notes:
Event type:

Baptism
Date: 20 Feb
Year: 1845
Location: Agra
Parents: William, Gnr, 1st Btn Art; Sophia
Notes:
Event type:

Burial
Date: 02-Apr
Year: 1845
Location:
Age:
Status:
Will administration:
Notes:
Transcribed by: British Library
India Office Records Reference:
N/1/67 ff.2,208
Source name:
Source year:
Source edition: Presidency: Bengal

The site peter gave previous was where I found the above information and it might be worth while contacting them:

Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections
The British Library
96 Euston Road
London
NW1 2DB
apac-enquiries@bl.uk

I think with the information you have it's worth joining the FIBIS website I gave because they have so many documents on the British soldiers and families during the Raj and they may know details on your family .

Kind regards
Adrian

[prairie_princess]

Adrian, Matilda is the daughter of Sophia and William who died shortly after her birth, I believe she is buried in Indian. I did contact that site but was redirected to another site (the National Achieves I believe)......I think I'll look into joining FIBIS site and see if I can find more info. I would really like to find out what happen to William.....mind you if he was busted in rank for misconduct may be he bunked off with another sweetie and that's why I can't find him in the BMD (61-71)LOL
Thanks for your help with the meaning G.O.C.C & G.O.G.G (each abr, is used on different documents)

PP

[apowell]

Hi,

It's a difficult one because who knows what William did after leaving the army and it's possible he remained in India because his pension money could have enabled him to live very well there and I would just keep a note of that marriage entry I gave for William Brad. If we think about it he'd spent around 20 years in the Country and may not have wanted to return, maybe his wife didn't want to stay and they parted company.

Let's hope the FIBIS can offer some help and I'll look forward to hearing a positive update from you in the future (fingers crossed for you).

I'll keep this thread open for another 7 days in case of any other posts and then I'll archive it if you have no objections (we can always re-open if we have any updates etc).

Kind regards
Adrian

[prairie_princess]

I just recieved an email from the BL on my inquiry abt Williams pensionand or death, here is what part of what I recieved:


Men who served in this battalion were unfit for active and or field service and more than likely undertook light duties in and around the barracks. Details of which regiments he served in should be given on the discharge papers.

These are the discharge papers of Bengal Army soldiers who took the option of unpensioned discharge when the EIC European forces were transferred to the British Army between 1859 and 1861.

Ok here's my quandry: none of the discharge papers show which regiment only that he is dischared from Her Majesty's Indian Millitary Forces "admitten to pension" In 1861 Written on the side is: 2 years service granted by G.O.G.G 12 Oct 1859. Another doc indicates on the side a possible injury in the mutiny 57/58. that he was attested to the Bengal regiment of artillery at Liverpool in 42. Nothing indication which regiment? I did find his son George's baptismal records that read: Cantonnents, Sergant 1st company 1st batt. B (or 13) Artillery

1. would the BL be indicating that William was not pensioned?
2. All doc are written as No 3221 Gunner William Brad, what does No 3221 mean?
3. What is EIC?
4, What is cantonnents?
Lastely one document dated 1861 is written: having been admitted to penssion for the Europe by G.O.G.G No 108 of 12 Febuary 1861?
Is that not his penssion plan? and could I find that in the FBIS or BL?

[apowell]

Hi,

I can answer a couple of your questions but the others I'll need to do some research.

1) What is cantonnents? (you've misread the word or the spelling is incorrect should read Cantonments)

Meaning of cantonment (noun)
Part of the town or district in which the troops are quartered.

The Cantonments areas were Military quarters under the British Colonial government so on the document I assume it stated William and family were living at the Military quarters within the Cantonments at the time of his sons baptisim. The Cantonments were built up areas in India where only the British lived and near military protection due to further fears of revolt after the Mutiny of 1857.

2) All doc are written as No 3221 Gunner William Brad, what does No 3221 mean?

It would have been William's Regimental Number 3221, this is very important and you should include it on any requests you make for information on William's military career etc.

3) Bengal regiment of artillery at Liverpool in 42. Nothing indication which regiment?

I'm sure (but I'll double check) the 1st company 1st batt. B (or 13) Artillery was part of the Bengal regiment of artillery. When was his son George born because on that date he must have been still serving with the Bengal regiment of artillery. If the date was late in his career I would say he would have served with the same Regiment all his military career and another clue would be that there is no other mention of any Regimental numbers.

4) Lastely one document dated 1861 is written: having been admitted to penssion for the Europe by G.O.G.G No 108 of 12 Febuary 1861?
Is that not his penssion plan? and could I find that in the FBIS or BL?

I'm not sure on this but the G.O.G.G No 108 of 12 Febuary 1861 is by General Order of Governor General and the reference is No 108. This again should be quoted when requesting information on William's pension because you will need to find out what the order no 108 was and I think FIBIS is the website to ask. This is only an idea but maybe he was granted land for long service, stayed on in India and then married again which would match that marriage entry we found previous (only an idea but hey who knows).

I'll check the other questions and get back to you soon.

I think because we're getting so much information all the time let's keep this thread going for a while longer.

I'm really enjoying the challange .

Regards
Adrian

[prairie_princess]

I'm glad your really enjoying this challenge-..I'm pulling my hair out! LOL

Ok I'll try to respond to your questions now:

1. I've misspelled Cantonments
2. George was born Aug 3rd 1848 and baptized July 3rd 1849-..I'm sure the 1st Battn “B” Artillery is a “B” and not the number 13. The written B's throughout the document are pretty consistent with the other baptismal recordings performed by a C. Haggett or Slaggett, the Chaplain in Lahar.

The very last page that I have is: Adjutant (?) Generals Office
Town Majors Office______18 no date
The man above named has, in general orders of the __________
Been invalided and ordered home.

Adjutant General of the Army
Town Mayor of Fort William is scratched out?

I believe this is the end of the March 1861 document ( no #'s on the pg's so just trying to piece them together)

Were military personnel often given land for service and wouldn't “admitten to pension” mean that William was pensioned?
I will try the FBIS and see if they can track down his pension records or death records. The BL also has Matilda's baptismal/death records that I can obtain for a fee-..do you think it would list more details abt. William and Sophia?
Thanks again for your help!
PP