ARC...John Lovell c.1851-1894, the real genealogy

[TumpJack]

Hi,

I was reading a post on here concerning my Great Great Great Grandfather, John Lovell, born in Dudley in around 1851.
He was killed in a bar fight in the Old Inn in Wolverhampton Street, Dudley on the day after Boxing Day in 1894. His killer was a Gypsy called Henry Arnold.
I have put extensive hours of research into tracing my Lovell side of the family, after hearing from the family that the Lovell's were Gypsies themselves, many years ago.
I found a census record for a "John Lovil" born around 1851 in Dudley, Staffordshire, living as a lodger with a Harriet Lovil born around 1806 in Leicester and Arclus Lovil born around 1847 in Dudley.
I am 100% confident that this is my 3rd Great Grandfather for the following reasons.
1. On the same Black Country article that is referred to in the earlier post about my 3rd Great Grandfather, the family nowadays said they were descended from Gypsy Hawkers.
2. They lived in an unlisted address, presumably a caravan or tent.
3. The people the Lovil's were living with were Gypsies. Benjamin Smith, the head of the "household", was a Basket Maker, a common Romany occupation.
4. They were living, at that time, in Aberystruth, Monmouth, Wales, which was on the Lovell travelling circuit.

On the 1871 census, I found a Harriet Lovell, living at Cross Street, Dudley with a John Lovell, born c.1807, in Dudley, (a Grinder, another common Gypsy occupation) with their son Nixey Lovell was married to Betsy and their children were also living in the house with them. After some research through Gypsy genealogy sites, I found out that the name Nixey, was a shortened version of Nicodemus.
John Lovell (1851-1894), had a son called Nicodemus in 1875 but he died in 1898, dying as a Bachelor. So, I believe, that it is evident that John's parent's were John Lovell and Harriet, as Nicodemus is hardly a conventional name from the 19th century with none Romany families.
Then, in 1881, I found John and Harriet again, this time living with their son Nehemiah Lovell, again, John Lovell jnr. had a son called Nehemiah born in 1884 and died in 1957.
There are also a lack of records for these as Romany's did not like to leave papertrail for people in the future to follow. John Lovell Jnr. is missing on the 1851 and 1871 censuses, possibly because he was out travelling the country and he never officially married his wife, Elizabeth, because if you search for a record for a John Lovell to an Elizabeth Shaw (which I know was her maiden name because I ordered my Great Great Grandfather's birth certificate from 1882), you will not find it.
Also, on the certificate, it says in the father's occupation column that John Lovell (1851-1894) was a Cutler (common Gypsy occupation).

I wanted to set the record straight as a lot of people have been tracing the wrong Lovell family, like I first did, with a John Lovell with parents as William Lovell and Maria Grundy. But, after talking with a relative of this John Lovell through ancestry, it was clear that I was tracing the wrong family, as she had the marriage certificate to Jane Dando, which said his father was William Lovell and this John Lovell had actually moved to the States.

I hope this is seen by people who are stumped trying to trace the Lovell family and hope it helps people.

Regards,

Jack

[rockyfowler]

On BCC http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/tr ... ver=379531

John Was already married so could not marry Eliizabeth ?
7 Aug 1876 St Andrew Netherton
John LOVELL M B Miner Netherton Father William Lovell Watchman
Jane DANDO M S Netherton Father William Dando Miner
Wit; Jesse Dando / Ellen Bagnall


Just Info
1871
Cross Street, Dudley, Staffordshire, England

John Lovell Head - Male 64 1807 -Grinder Worcestershire, England
Harriett Lovell Wife - Female 61 1810 - Leicestershire, England
Nixey Lovell Son - Male 30 1841 - Staffordshire, England
Betcy Lovell Wife - Female 26 1845 - Yorkshire, England
Harkey Lovell Son - Male 22 1849 - Staffordshire, England
Harriott Lovell Daughter - Female 5 1866 - Worcestershire, England
Bernasdin Lovell Son - Male 2 1869 - Worcestershire, England
Chisedine Lovell Son - Male 8 1863 - Worcestershire, England
George Lovell Son - Male 0 1871 - Worcestershire, England
George Gorden Lodger - Male 22 1849 - Lancashire, England

1881
23, Himley Street, Dudley (Worcs), Dudley, Staffordshire, England

John Lovell Head Married Male 85 1796 - Staffordshire, England
Harriet Lovell Wife Married Female 70 1811 - Leicester, Leicestershire, England
Nehemiah Lovell Son Married Male 40 1841 Tinman & Grinder Dudley, Worcestershire, England
Ellen Lovell Daughter In Law Married Female 43 1838 - Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Sabrina Lovell Grand Daughter Single Female 17 1864 - Dudley, Worcestershire, England
Levi Lovell Grand Son Single Male 15 1866 Tinman & Grinder Dudley, Worcestershire, England
Rachael Lovell Grand Daughter Single Female 13 1868 Scholar Dudley, Worcestershire, England
Nehemiah Lovell Grand Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar Dudley, Worcestershire, England
Charles Lovell Grand Son Single Male 5 1876 - Dudley, Worcestershire, England

[Northern Lass]

right so I will amend Bcc so that John who is with Elizabeth Shaw is not part of the Wm and Maria household

and he is prob the son of John and Harriet?

thanks Tumpjack for info...do you have the full info on that birth certif featuring Elizabeth shaws name pls

thanks RF for marriage that has the John son of wm as marrying a Jane and fits with occup. for father of watchman.

[rockyfowler]

If you send for birth cert to be sure?

First name(s) JOHN
Last name LOVELL
Birth year 1838
Birth quarter 3
District DUDLEY
County Staffordshire
Country England
Volume 18
Page 260

[Northern Lass]

If you send for birth cert to be sure?

First name(s) JOHN
Last name LOVELL
Birth year 1838
Birth quarter 3
District DUDLEY
County Staffordshire
Country England
Volume 18
Page 260

I have added the 2 Johns ...but both born 1850's who is this born 1838?

[rockyfowler]

First name(s) JOHN
Last name LOVELL
Birth year 1855
Birth quarter 4
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District DUDLEY
County Staffordshire
Country England
Volume 6C
Page 128


William and Ruth's children ..
Lovell, John
b. ABT 1838
Dudley ,Worcestershire

Lovell, Phoebe Ann
b. ABT 1840
Dudley ,Worcestershire

Lovell, Emma
b. ABT 1843
Dudley ,Worcestershire


William and Maria's children ..
Lovell, William
b. ABT 1848
Dudley ,Worcestershire

Lovell, Jane Grundy
b. ABT 1850
Dudley ,Worcestershire

Lovell, John
b. ABT 1857
m. Dando, Jane

[rockyfowler]

http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/tr ... ver=379546 John Lovell 1838 and John Lovell 1857

Best to put John Lovell birth cert on to show his parents to be certain

[Jimmy]

First name(s) JOHN
Last name LOVELL
Birth year 1855
Birth quarter 4
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District DUDLEY
County Staffordshire
Country England
Volume 6C
Page 128.

Worcestershire.
Place Dudley.
Church name St Thomas.
Register type Unspecified.
Register entry number 408.
Baptism date 02 Dec 1855.
Birth date 05 Nov 1855.
Person forename John
Person sex M.
Person abode Wellington Road.
Father forename William
Father surname LOVELL.
Father occupation Miner.
Mother forename Maria.

[Jimmy]

If you send for birth cert to be sure?

First name(s) JOHN
Last name LOVELL
Birth year 1838
Birth quarter 3
District DUDLEY
County Staffordshire
Country England
Volume 18
Page 260

Worcestershire.
Place Dudley.
Church name St Thomas.
Register type Unspecified.
Register entry number 1980.
Baptism date 30 Sep 1838.
Birth date 13 Sep 1838.
Person forename John
Person sex M.
Person abode Shavers End.
Father forename William
Father surname LOVELL.
Father occupation Miner.
Mother forename Ruth.

[rockyfowler]

1851
Well Farm, Gate Hangs, Stourbridge Union, Worcestershire, England

William Loveall - - Male 50 1801 Gipseys -
Mochus Loveall - - Male 8 1843 Gipseys -
Sarah Loveall - - Female 40 1811 Gipseys -
Arklass Loveall - - Male 30 1821 Gipseys -
Susan Loveall - - Female 27 1824 Gipseys -
John Loveall - - Male 12 1839 Gipseys -

[BC Wench]

I connect to Jane Dando (1857-1930) wife of John Lovell (1855-1928). My Gt Grandmother Eliza was a sister to Jane.

I have connected Jane here on BCC

http://bcconnections.tribalpages.com/tr ... ver=379568

I was also in correspondence some years ago with a lady from the USA who is a descendant of Jane & John Lovell. I don't have anything else on John apart from what is already on BCC, but I do have lots more info on Jane's siblings.

[Northern Lass]

Thanks all and esp Tumpjack for flagging this

think that has been added and sorted to Bcc now
so will move to arc unless anyone wishes to add anymore.

[TumpJack]

Hi guys, here's the birth cert for my 2nd Great Grandfather, John Lovell, born 1882, son of John Lovell (1851-1894) and Elizabeth Shaw (1857-1937)


http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/102819576/person/160022252640/gallery

This takes you to my page of him on ancestry

[Northern Lass]

Hi guys, here's the birth cert for my 2nd Great Grandfather, John Lovell, born 1882, son of John Lovell (1851-1894) and Elizabeth Shaw (1857-1937)


http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/102819576/person/160022252640/gallery

This takes you to my page of him on ancestry

Hi Jack won't open unless you have ancestry don't suppose you could just transcribe the info could you pls and post here