ARC TBC Finding Granddad

[Blazingwheels]

After spending a huge amount of time searching for my Grandfather's ancestors, without success, I'm hoping somebody on Genealogy Forum UK is able to help.

In short there are two men, with different names, whom I believe are the same man. The only way to prove this is to find out if the age pension was paid to either of these men, at what address it was paid and are they the same person.

Family lore has it that, Albert Edward ONER (c1879-1955) changed his name and age when he joined the army in 1897, there is no trace of his birth. From that date forward I have fairly good records, including his marriage, death and army service records. I also have information from Uncles, Aunties, Cousins as well as my own memories as I knew him when I was a little lad.

A few years ago, whilst going through my late Mother's family papers and photos, I came across a birth certificate for Alfred HONOR born (1881-??), there is no trace of his marriage or death. The date of application for the certificate was 1946, the year Alfred turned 65 and was eligible for the Old Age Pension!!!

Could it be that after a long army career as Albert Edward ONER 5139 he had to prove his identity in order to receive the pension? My Father says, "he had difficulty getting his pension, it took him a while". There must be a way to extract this information from the Dept for Age Pension.

Cheers, Kevin

PS
My Mother also had a death certificate for Hannah Honour (nee Giles) of Reading, Berkshire.

[peterd]

marriage cert whats his father down as and who are witnesses ?

[gardener]

Was the death certificate an original one? Or had that been reissued?

[Blazingwheels]

Unfortunately Perterd, Albert Edward ONER'S father William was a 'deceased' 'labourer' at the time of his marriage to my Grandmother and the witnesses were Grannie's father and William Alfred Chessell, a stranger to me.

[Blazingwheels]

The attached file Gardener is a copy of the 'entry of death' I found among my Mother's papers. Hannah Honour (or Honor) nee Giles, was the Mother of Alfred Honor. By the way, she and William had two sons named Alfred, the first one died within a year.

[gardener]

For what it is worth, I think that your conclusions are correct. There must have been some reason to apply for those particular birth and death certificates. But, I don't see any way to prove it. 1946 was the year that they brought in the National Insurance Act but I don't think that will help at all. The UK system is so disjointed that even if he had to provide his birth certificate in order to get his pension, he probably didn't have to notify anyone else about it.
Would there be any chance of finding descendants of Elizabeth for example? Perhaps there is a family story of a brother who ran away to join the army?

[Blazingwheels]

Yes gardener, Elizabeth did marry and I'm trying to track down her descendants now.

There is also a brother Joseph. He joined the Royal Engineers at Aldershot and was dishonourably discharged for incorrectly enlisting with the militia. Could be that after Mum died in 1892 the family went to pot with two boys enlisting in the militia under false names and, looking at the 1901 census, it looks as though William and Joseph changed their names to ONER around the same time as Granddad Albert Edward.

[BC Wench]

I also think that you are correct in assuming that the 2 men are the same. I wonder, as the first Alfred born and died in 1881 aged 3 weeks, that your grandfather Alfred/Albert Edward who was born in 1882 and baptised 7 Jan 1883, changed his name because of being named after his deceased brother?

From Family Tree Magazine: “The Old Age Pensions Act of 1908 required claimants to ‘be in a position to produce evidence of age’ and went on to clarify that the ‘best evidence would probably be a certificate of birth’ but that ‘a certificate of baptism, a certificate of marriage if the age is shown on it, or any other certificate or formal document, duly dated, which will afford independent testimony of the claimant’s age, should be produced if possible’ “……. If these could not be produced then information from the 1841 and 1851 Censuses could be used….

This is how I see the family, which you may already have:-

BAPTISM: (2nd Alfred Honor)
First name(s) Alfred
Last name Honor
Gender Male
Birth year 1882
Birth place -
Baptism year 1883
Baptism date 07 Jan 1883
Residence Reading, Berkshire, England
Place Reading
County Berkshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Honor
Mother's first name(s) Hannah
Mother's last name Honor
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

Marriage: Mar Qtr 1867 at Wokingham, Berkshire 2c 507
William Honor & Hannah Giles

1871 Census: 5 Union Terrace, Reading, Berks
William Honor – Head.Mar – 26 – Sawyer’s Labourer – Earley, Berks
Hanah Honor – Wife – 21 – Charwoman – Reading, Berks
Elizabeth Honor – Dau – 18mths – Reading, Berks
/ (Family of Hannah Honor nee Giles)
James Giles – Head.Mar – 51 – Steam Sawyer – Tadley, Hants
Fanny Giles – Wife – 50 – Char Woman – Silchester, Hants
Thomas Giles – Son.UM – 25 – (?) Labourer – Reading, Berks
Ellen Giles – Dau.UM – 19 – Dress Maker – Reading, Berks
Elizabeth Giles – Dau – 10 – Scholar – Reading, Berks
Charles Giles – Son – 8 – Scholar – Reading, Berks
Mary Giles – Dau – 2 – Reading, Berks

1881 Census: 19 Coley Place, Reading, Berks
William Honor – Head.Mar – 36 – Labourer at Timber Wharf – Earley, Berks
Annah Honor – Wife – 34 – Pamber, Hamps
Elizabeth Honor – Dau – 11 – Scholar – Moulsford, Berks
Charles Honor – Son – 4 – Scholar – Reading, Berks

1891 Census: 51 Jubilee Square, Reading, Berks
William Honor – Head.Mar – 45 – Labourer Ground Work – Earley, Berks
Hannah Honor – Wife – 42 – Pamber, Hamps
Alfred Honor – Son – 9 – Scholar – Reading, Berks
Joseph Honor – Son – 4 – Scholar – Reading, Berks

1901 Census: Baker’s Arms Tavern, Farnham, Surrey
William Oner – Boarder.Wid – 55 – General Labourer – Reading, Berks
Joseph Oner – Son – 15 – Errand Boy Post – Reading, Berks

1911 Census: Registered Lodging House, 23 Silver Street, Reading, Berks
William Oner - Single - 69 - General Labourer - N.K.

1911 Census:
Albert Oner – Colour Sergeant – 32 – Single – 2nd Hampshire Regt. – Portsmouth, Hants

BURIAL:
First name(s) William
Last name Honour
Birth year 1844
Death year 1913
Burial year 1913
Burial day 31
Burial month Oct
Church London Rd Cemetery (consecrated)
Place Reading
Age 69
Residence Infirmary
County Berkshire
Country England
Record set Berkshire Burial Index

BURIAL:
Hannah Honour
Birth year 1848
Death year 1892
Burial day 16 August 1892
Church London Rd Cemetery (consecrated)
Place Reading
Age 44
Residence 1 Rush Court
County Berkshire
Country England
Record set Berkshire Burial Index
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

I can understand the surname Honor + variants being spelled differently, because if you say "your honour" the aitch "h" at the beginning wouldn't be pronounced, it would be pronounced "onour"

[Jimmy]

I wonder if Albert was born as Alfred.


1891. 51 Jubilee Square, Reading, Berkshire.
William Honor 45. Labourer. general work. Earley, Berkshire.
Hannah Honor 42. Pamber, Hampshire.
Alfred Honor 9. Son. Reading.
Joseph Honor 4. Son. Reading.

1901. Farnham, Surrey.
William Oner. Age: 55. Boarder. Widow. Reading, Berkshire.
Joseph Oner. Age: 15. Boarder. Reading, Berkshire.

[Jimmy]

The death says born about 1882,

Albert E Oner.
Birth Date: abt 1882.
Date of Registration: Mar 1955.
Age at Death: 73.
Registration district: Petersfield.
Inferred County: Hampshire.
Volume: 6b.
Page: 493.

[Blazingwheels]

You’ve been very busy BC Wench, and thank you for taking the trouble. Although I have much of the information you’ve found, you’ve confirmed my conclusion that Alfred and Albert are one of the same person.

The records I don’t have are the burials of Hannah Honour, 6 days after her death and William’s 21 years later. Hannah’s residence at the time, 1 Rush Court is, according to Google Maps, now a care home. She died from tuberculosis so I wonder if she spent her last days there, in care. I shall research more.

I’m going to apply for a range of BMD certificates to consolidate some of these families members and, just maybe, some additional information will turn up. Certificates from GRO UK cost $50 a pop so I wont be ordering very many. It’s a pity they don’t do the same as GRO Ireland, for genealogy purposes they will email photo copies, it costs a lot less.

Although Alfred and Albert appear to be the same person, I would very much like to show proof. Do you, or anybody else, know how to approach Dept Age Pensions and extract the information I need? If I have to pay for a specialist in this area, that’s ok.

[Blazingwheels]

You're right Jimmy, Granddad Albert E ONER died and was buried in Petersfield, Hampshire. He and my Grandmother lived not far from our house and his two sons, Victor and Norman, lived even closer with their families. Although the crotchety old so and so had a colourful army career he was not much of a family man as we hardly ever saw him.

That 1901 census is very interesting as Willian and Joseph have the same name as Albert, ONER and they're far apart.

Another bit of information I'd like to find is about Joseph HONOR/ONER. He joined the army only to be later dishonourably discharged after serving time in prison. Apparently he wrongly enlisted with the militia. Would be great to know the details. Did he and his brother Alfred join the militia under the name ONER? Did Albert get away with it but not Alfred?

[Northern Lass]

You’ve been very busy BC Wench, and thank you for taking the trouble. Although I have much of the information you’ve found, you’ve confirmed my conclusion that Alfred and Albert are one of the same person.

The records I don’t have are the burials of Hannah Honour, 6 days after her death and William’s 21 years later. Hannah’s residence at the time, 1 Rush Court is, according to Google Maps, now a care home. She died from tuberculosis so I wonder if she spent her last days there, in care. I shall research more.

I’m going to apply for a range of BMD certificates to consolidate some of these families members and, just maybe, some additional information will turn up. Certificates from GRO UK cost $50 a pop so I wont be ordering very many. It’s a pity they don’t do the same as GRO Ireland, for genealogy purposes they will email photo copies, it costs a lot less.

Although Alfred and Albert appear to be the same person, I would very much like to show proof. Do you, or anybody else, know how to approach Dept Age Pensions and extract the information I need? If I have to pay for a specialist in this area, that’s ok.

Sounds like you are paying too much for a certif I only pay £9.25

see this link
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

[Blazingwheels]

You're right Northern Lass, GBP 9.25, I must have been in too much of a hurry. Mind you, I'll have to wait a good few weeks as it's standard mail to Australia.

[peterd]

daughter on death cert have you found here marriage ?