Question about BMD

[grangers14]

I used Ancestry for them.
Jo

[SteveTurner]

Yes I'm using the free one and just assumed the other sites used them as well.

Gardener suggests the marriage certificate as being the best option but in my John Smith thread it was suggested I get my great grandfather's birth certificate to find his father.

[gardener]

Yes I'm using the free one and just assumed the other sites used them as well.

Gardener suggests the marriage certificate as being the best option but in my John Smith thread it was suggested I get my great grandfather's birth certificate to find his father.

You could do that.

My mum has the receipt for the burial of Frederick, which is dated 1966 and that fits what she remembers: he was alive when my sister was born on his birthday 26 Oct 1965 but not when my cousin was born the year after and there's a Frederick Turner died 2Q 1966 Basford district aged 84. That would make his birthday 26/10/1881

FMD has these if we stick to Derbyshire/Notts and search last qtr 1881 and first qtr 1882:

Births Dec 1881
TURNER Frederick Derby 7b 528
Births Mar 1882
Turner Frederick Basford 7b 221

His birth should have been registered in 1881 but it has been known for parents to be tardy. Or it could be the Derby one depending on exactly where he lived. I don't see him jumping out in any of the census though.
Or he could have been born in a different county.
It is also possible that his age at death could be incorrect. Even if the day and month are right the year could be wrong. That is why I suggested the marriage certificate first, since that seems to be "correct". It would (hopefully) give you a firm place to start as it might give Frederick's age, occupation, marital status, and father's name and occupation.

[grangers14]

?? Doras death?

Dora Turner 1913 Jan-Feb-Mar 1975 Leicestershire Central Leicestershire

[SteveTurner]

??
Frederick Turner
Mother's Maiden Surname: Mansfield


John Turner
Mother's Maiden Surname: Mansfield

Are these two also registered under surname Mansfield like my father and aunt? (I searched GenesReunited which only finds one of them and as Turner, and Ancestry which finds Frederick as Turner but John as both but I can't see the dates or exact district as I don't have a subscription)

Dora's death in Leicestershire is correct. She died during a heart operation at Glenfield.

[grangers14]

Yep it does ...

Name: Frederick Mansfield
Mother's Maiden Surname: Turner
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1940
Registration District: Basford
Inferred County: Derbyshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 338



Name: John Mansfield
Mother's Maiden Surname: Mansfield
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1943
Registration District: Basford
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 265

[SteveTurner]

Thank you. It's too much of a coincidence that it's anything else other than the fact my grandparents weren't married then.

Odd that it has mother's maiden name as Turner for Frederick though.

[grangers14]

Hmmm I thought it was odd having Turner as maiden name too

I have just had an odd reg for a person, it looked like the registration was done in 3 surnames though. I asked for a certificate from the local reg office, it came as a certified entry and was typed.
It has the 3 surnames it was showing in the indexes but not has ammended. I dont understand it. The mothers maiden name is there, otherwise known as... and the child Surname another from father.
This is recent though
Might be worth getting one so you can see?
Jo

[gardener]

You don't live locally do you?
If the kids were baptised then you could look those up in some local library or the Notts archives.

[SteveTurner]

Registration District: Basford
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 265

Quick questions about this reference. Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume this is extrapolated from the scan of a book that was made from the records from the registrations.

For my dad there are only 5 names, counting his twice, so I assume they are all on the same page? Would there be only one registration office for Basford? My home town used to be in the Basford district and moved briefly to Shardlow before becoming Ilkeston in 1936. I assume that's when the registry office opened here.

Is it more likely that Dora and Frederick registered their children separately or there that there was some confusion over the record when it was sent to the central office or as someone said, they were allowed to register them twice?

Just curious really, and to get the facts as straight as possible when I tell my family.

[SteveTurner]

You don't live locally do you?
If the kids were baptised then you could look those up in some local library or the Notts archives.

Mum isn't sure if they were baptised, but I only live about 5 miles away.

[gardener]

I think the general rule (for this time period) was that if the parents were unmarried then the child could either:

a) be registered under the mother's surname i.e. Mansfield mmn Mansfield
or b) be registered under the father's surname i.e. Turner mmn Mansfield

Option b was only available if the father was actually present at the registration.

I think that what happened with your family is that both parents were present and the child was registered as "xxx Turner or Mansfield" with mother's maiden name Mansfield.
So one registration. Then when the index was made it was indexed under both surnames, each with mmn Mansfield.
You can see the logic behind that. The child may have grown up using either name.

John in 1943 is indexed as both Turner, John mmn Mansfield, Basford 7b 265 and Mansfield, John mmn Mansfield, Basford 7b 265.

In the case of Frederick, he is listed in the Dec qtr 1940 index as Turner, Frederick mmn Mansfield , Basford 7b 338. He is also indexed as Mansfield, Frederick mmn Turner, Basford 7b 338 but that entry is not in the index where it should be, it has been added at the bottom of the page but still typed.
It looks to me as though after the index for that quarter was typed someone realized that Frederick was not entered twice, so they added him at the bottom of the appropriate sheet. In doing so it looks as though they mixed-up the maiden name and put down his father's surname by mistake.

The births were not registered twice. The set-up allows for four birth registrations/page in the register. When a child was registered with two surnames then he/she was indexed twice.

Basford was the name for a registration district, and also a sub-district. There would be one office for each sub-district. I suppose Basford sub-district office would also be Basford district office. The boundary changes are listed http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/dist ... sford.html

[gardener]

Stapleford seems to have been a sub-district under Shardlow district until 1935. Then it was included in Beeston & Stapleford subdistrict and that came under Basford, at least from 1937 onwards - it is not very clear!

[SteveTurner]

Thank you for that. My dad is under Shardlow and he was born 1935.

[gardener]

You don't live locally do you?
If the kids were baptised then you could look those up in some local library or the Notts archives.

Mum isn't sure if they were baptised, but I only live about 5 miles away.

Perhaps you could find someone who remembers the family? Apart from your mum. There may have been a bit of gossip at the time?