Question about BMD

[SteveTurner]

I've been trying to find information about my father's parents. My father is dead and I've lost contact with his surviving brother and sister. My mother has my grandmother's short birth certificate which confirms her maiden name as Dora Mansfield born 12/08/1913. She died when I was a teenager in the 70's and I've noticed that BMD doesn't have deaths that late. My grandfather was Fred (probably Frederick) Turner. I don't know when he was born and have one vague memory of him so he probably died in the early 60's.

I did a search for their marriage. I can only find one Frederick Turner marrying Dora Mansfield between 1930 and 1944 and that is in 1944. The only problem with this is that my dad was born in 1935, his sister in 1939 and his brothers probably in 1940 and 1943 (I say probably because those years are incomplete and I can't find either).

My mum says it's very unlikely that marriage in 1944 is correct. So finally my question.

Assuming 1944 is a transcript error for 1934 where could this have occurred? The search that gives 1944 gives Basford 7b 460. The 460 gives 4 names and the little glasses link to the scan gives the pages that have Oct Nov Dec 1944.

Where does the information come from that is in the pages with the names and district? And where do the 4 names come from when you follow the 460 link?

Or is 1944 certainly correct and my mum wrong. Or could the record be missing?

[gardener]

Hi

Marriages were recorded at each register office (church and civil marriages) and each page in the register had space for two marriages so that is why you get four names come up for each page. Earlier marriages you often find six names because they used to record thee marriages on each page, I forget when that changed.

Each office made copies of the registered marriage details and sent them to the main office for the General Record Office. The scan which you saw will be the index made from those records at the General Record Office. I don't know if the index was made every year (any one know that?) but I am pretty sure it was not left undone for ten years.

Do you have your father's birth certificate? What does that say?

One odd thing is that there is a birth in 1939 which seems to be registered as surname Turner and mother's maiden name Mansfield, but also as surname Mansfield and mother's maiden name Mansfield. If that is your father's sister's marriage then it does open the possibility that the parents were not married at that point.

Hmm, so does what I take to be your grandfather's birth in Shardlow district. If you click on the page number the way you did for the marriages then his birth is registered as both surnames.

Have you tried looking for the missing brothers under Mansfield? I have not seen double entries like this before and possibly they were entered under Mansfield.

[peterd]

have you a copy of your father birth cert ?

it is poss dora might of been married previously ?

[SteveTurner]

Hi Gardener,

I just looked at births with just mothers maiden name as Mansfield and found several double entries including my father Leslie (1935) and his sister Shirley (1939). I couldn't find either of the brothers (I know them as Johnny and Freddy). I will be seeing my mum tomorrow and will ask if I'm right about 1940 and 1943 (one of my mum's sisters was born in 1943 and I couldn't find her either). I will also see if she has my father's birth certificate. My mum thought Dora might have been my grandfather's second wife unless I misheard.

My grandmother also shows as mothers maiden name Mansfield but no double entry, which made me wonder if her parents were unmarried.

My dad was from Stapleford which was in Shardlow district until 1935 and then Basford.

I wish it was as easy as my mum's mum side of the family. My grandmother was born in Jan 1911 and so is on the census and she and her parents lived with her grandparents at the time, and so Ancestry found loads very easily. It also helps that it's not a very common name and back in 1841 there were only 13 Disneys in Derbyshire.

[peterd]

double entry could mean they wernt married until 1944 and the first entry being the original birth certifcate and the second a re register after the couple got married so his children would have his surname legally ?

might be worth sending for both your father certificate to see the difference might be that the turner/mansfield will have a much later registration date ?

[grangers14]

Moving over to miscellaneous.

[gardener]

I don't think it is a double entry as in re-registered under the new married name - that would not be entered on the same index page.
It looks as though both parents went to register the children and since they were unmarried the registrar entered the baby with two surnames.
If Dora was a second wife then perhaps the first one was still living until shortly before the 2nd marriage. Or perhaps she had gone off? Frederick and Dora would still be unable to marry for a period of time.
You said that your mother has Dora's short birth certificate. Short ones were not introduced until 1947 so it must have been bought after that year. A short one could have been chosen because she was illegitimate. Or it could have been because it was cheaper. My original certificate is a short one, Dad registered the birth and a) spelled my first name with a K instead of the C my mum expected, and b) only bought a short certificate! Not that I cared, or even knew the significance of it, but Mum was obviously still annoyed many years later and she bought me a new full one. Naturally my older sister had a proper full one all the time, it is us younger siblings who have to put up with second-hand things and cheap certificates
Hope your Mum has helped out with new information by now.

[SteveTurner]

Hi Gardener,
Very interesting comments there. Frederick was older than Dora, and the way my mum said it, it wasn't just a few years.

My mum has the receipt for the burial of Frederick, which is dated 1966 and that fits what she remembers: he was alive when my sister was born on his birthday 26 Oct 1965 but not when my cousin was born the year after and there's a Frederick Turner died 2Q 1966 Basford district aged 84. That would make his birthday 26/10/1881

Mum is certain that Dora was Frederick's second wife, a fact she knew before my dad.

Dora had 2 or 3 sisters but she can't remember their names or relative ages. Dora died in 1975 (Feb I think)

The only other information is that Dora's mum was alive in 1959 (there's a photo with her, Dora, me and one or both my parents) and her dad was killed in a munitions explosion at Chilwell, probably the one in 1918 that killed over 130 workers. He was only identified by his red hair.

[grangers14]

??
Frederick Turner
Mother's Maiden Surname: Mansfield
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1940
Registration District: Basford
Inferred County: Derbyshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 338



John Turner
Mother's Maiden Surname: Mansfield
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1943
Registration District: Basford
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 265

[gardener]

Those look very likely don't they?

I think the next stage will cost money

Dora: you could get her full birth certificate, should give her mother's name and possibly her father's
Dora/Frederick: that marriage certificate looks the only possibility, and given the births being in various surnames it has to be quite likely. It should give you Frederick's father and possibly Dora's
Frederick's death certificate: you are pretty sure it is the correct one. It might not give any information that would help though.

The marriage certificate seems the best way forward. It would confirm Frederick's year of birth (if he was truthful) and with his father's name you should be able to pick him up on the census. If he was born 1881 he may have married quite young and so you may find him with his first wife. then you could look to see if there is a death for her - if her name is not too common!

Anyone else got any ideas?

[grangers14]

Do you know what date is on he funeral bill?
Theres a will,
Turner Frederick of 41, St Albans Road, Arnold Nottinghamshire died 3rd May 1966 Probae Nottingham 8 June to Frederick Thomas Turner painter and decorator and Gertrude Annie Perkins married woman. £1731

[grangers14]

Looks like that Will belongs to a Frederick who married a Mabel, he was a shop assistant in Arnold 1911.
Theres another one in 19 Howard Road, Mansfield, aged 29 a coal miner married to Edith, 2 children Aurther and Lizzie
There are a couple of others born about that time too.
Jo

[SteveTurner]

Grangers, where did you find those? My mum said two of the children were consecutive years but I can't see them on BMD. Even putting in those volume and page numbers gives me nothing. Basford covers Stapleford where they lived. However as far as I know Frederick always lived there, at least when with Dora, and not Arnold.

I will check the date but think it just confirmed what I found on BMD. I think i know the cemetery where they are buried but no idea if there's a headstone. Would it be removed for Dora's funeral? For some reason I remember seeing one after her death but only visited the once and would have been 15 (I thought younger myself) and I can't remember how long after the funeral it was. I would expect that to confirm his age.

I thought it would cost money to get further and unfortunately I have to decide how much I really need o know. I'm at a similar block with my mother's father's father and need a certificate there.

Someone asked about my father's birth certificate. My mum was sure she had it but couldn't find it Sunday and wonders if she threw it away after his death.

Thanks for the help, guys.

[grangers14]

As gardener says, as you have Doras maiden name is buy the marriage certificate.
Jo

[SRD]

Grangers, where did you find those?

If you are using the FreeBMD site then you should be aware that they don't have total coverage of all of the BMD records. Different sites have different coverage, as far as I'm aware none of the sites have all the coverage.