*Arc tbc* ---Fancy a real challenge with my Neal family?

[elizabethsmith]

If you like a real challenge, I'd love your help please!

I have a death certificate for Jane Neal, d 19/8/1883 aged 56 years (b 1827ish) at Bishops Court, Old Bailey, London. Jane was living with Joseph Thornton in 1881 RG11/374/49/28 (I am able to follow this line through) and is shown as being born in Manchester. The death certificate is in the name of Neal so I don't think they were married and in 1871 RG10/421/58/77 they are shown as uncle and aunt living with 2 nieces and 2 nephews who I think belong to the Thornton side of the family, Again Jane is shown as being born in Manchester and they are living in Bishops Court.

Things now get difficult! Family hearsay says that Jane was married twice, once to John Neal and then to Joseph Thornton

In 1851, I have HO107/1515/205/3
Jane age 25, born Manchester
John Neal age 27, cleaner at warehouse? Born St Lukes
John age 7 born St Lukes
Jane age 5 born Whitechapel

A 3rd child Elizabeth, my great grandmother was reportedly born on 14/6/1853 and in 1871 RG10/421/80/29 and 1881 RG11/374/49/26 is also living in Bishops Court with her husband George Smith.

In 1861 RG9/213/23/39
John age 30 so only aged 3 years in 10 years, farrier, born St Lukes
Jane age 34, born Manchester
No children

There is another John Neal in 1861 RG9/209/81/5, b1824, a shoe polisher b St Lukes living with wife Mary Ann and 5 children, John Thomas, Jane, Elizabeth, Fannie, Mary Ann in Finsbury. The ages of John Thomas, Jane and Elizabeth almost match the ages of John Neal and Manchester Jane's children. I have the baptism certificate for this Elizabeth which shows her parents as John Neal, shoe polisher, and Mary Ann Neal , dated 26/6/1852. I also have a marriage certificate for John Neal, shoemaker and Jane Donson in 1842 so Mary Ann is his second wife.

I've hunted for other BMD certificates without success. Is the second family a red herring despite the similarities? If so where are the children of Manchester Jane and John Neal? Any and all ideas appreciated!

[elizabethsmith]

PS Manchester Jane's daughter Jane b1846ish pops up again in the 1871 census RG10/421/18/7 with husband Walter Newton, living in Bishops Court

[peterd]

poss birth register (submitted)

John Neal
Christening: 1844 St Lukes, , London, England


John Thomas Neal
Jane Donson


poss marriage


Marriages Jun 1842

ADAMS Nathaniel Shoreditch 2 301
BUTLER Elizabeth Shoreditch 2 301
Donson Jane Shoreditch 2 301
Dousan Jane Shoreditch 2 301
KILLAR Isabella Shoreditch 2 301
NEAL John Thomas Shoreditch 2 301
NIX Lydia Shoreditch 2 301
PALMER Benjamin Shoreditch 2 301
REDMOND Thomas Shoreditch 2 301


extracted

JOHN THOMAS NEAL
JANE DONSON
Marriage: 04 MAY 1842 Saint John The Baptist, Shoreditch, London,


submitted

Jane Neal
Christening: 1846 Whitechapel, London, England


Father: John Thomas Neal
Mother: Jane Donson


think this is john in

1881 98 Ford Street London, Middlesex



John NEAL Head 36 St Lukes, Middlesex, England Cabinet Maker
Selina NEAL Wife 34 B'ham, Warwick, England
James NEAL 11 Hoxton, Middlesex, England
Emily NEAL 2 Bow, Middlesex, England


can any one find john and selina in 1871 please

[mallosa]

1871: 80 Nicholas Street, Hoxton Old Town, Shoreditch, London
John Neale 27 Head Cabinet Maker b.St Lukes Middlesex
Selina Neale 25 Wife b.Birmingham Worcester?
John Neale 5 Son b. Shoreditch, Middlesex
James Neale 1 Son b. Shoreditch, Middlesex

[mallosa]

1891: 72 Ford Street, Stratford Le Bow St Mary, London
John Neale 47 Head Cabinet Maker
Selina Neale 44 Wife
James Neale 22 Son S Boot Finisher
Emily Neale 13 Dau
William Neale 8 Son
Henrietta Neale 2 Dau
Matthias Cartwright 51 Father In Law Wdwr b.Birmingham

[peterd]

1881 47 Rising Hill St London, Middlesex

Matthies CARTWRIGHT 70 Bgham, Warwick, Pocket Book Mkr
Jane CARTWRIGHT 70 Bgham, Warwick,
Matthies CARTWRIGHT 37 Bgham, Warwick, Pocket Book Mkr
Frank M. BOYDELL Lodger 45 Itchester, Somerset, Commercial Clerk

[mallosa]

Well we've found those, but where does this take us Pete?

[peterd]

1871: 80 Nicholas Street, Hoxton Old Town, Shoreditch, London
John Neale 27 Head Cabinet Maker b.St Lukes Middlesex
Selina Neale 25 Wife b.Birmingham Worcester?
John Neale 5 Son b. Shoreditch, Middlesex
James Neale 1 Son b. Shoreditch, Middlesex

any one find john in 1861 ? cheers b.St Lukes Middlesex


trying to trace john back to see where he his in 61 hoping he with a relative like selina father there in 1891 altough cannot find a marriage for a cartwright and neal ?

[mallosa]

1861: 7 Mintern St, Hoxton Old Town, Middlesex
James Neale 41 Head Chair Maker b.Southwark, Surrey
Mary Neale 39 Wife b.Holborn, Middlesex
John Neale 16 Son Employed by father b.St Lukes, Middlesex
William Neale 14 Son at a pocket book makers b.St Lukes, Middlesex
George Neale 12 Son b.St Lukes, Middlesex
Mary Neale 10 Dau b.St Lukes, Middlesex
Edward Neale 8 Son
Amelia Neale 6 Dau
Frances Neale 4 Dau
Thomas Neale 1 Son
others born Shoreditch

[peterd]

dont think we have the right one as no elizabeth or jane there so that 1881 i found is no good back to the drawing board

[mallosa]

There is another John Neal in 1861 RG9/209/81/5, b1824, a shoe polisher b St Lukes living with wife Mary Ann and 5 children, John Thomas, Jane, Elizabeth, Fannie, Mary Ann in Finsbury. The ages of John Thomas, Jane and Elizabeth almost match the ages of John Neal and Manchester Jane's children. I have the baptism certificate for this Elizabeth which shows her parents as John Neal, shoe polisher, and Mary Ann Neal , dated 26/6/1852. I also have a marriage certificate for John Neal, shoemaker and Jane Donson in 1842 so Mary Ann is his second wife.

I've hunted for other BMD certificates without success. Is the second family a red herring despite the similarities? If so where are the children of Manchester Jane and John Neal? Any and all ideas appreciated!

1861: Blue Anchor Alley, Finsbury, St Luke, Middlesex
John T Neale 37 Head Shoe Poliser b.St Luke
Mary Ann Neale 24 Wife b.Hoxton
John Thomas Neale 18 Son b.St Luke
Jane Neale 16 Dau b.St Luke
Elizabeth Neale 9 Dau b.St Luke
James Neale 6 Son b.St Luke.
Mary Ann Neale 2 Dau b.St Luke

[peterd]

what was john job in 1861 this might be him

1881 4 Aylesbury Street Newington, Surrey


John NEAL Lodger U Male 38 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Boot Finisher


loddging with this family

Richard John HEALEY 33 E Bedminster, Somerset, Railway Signalman
Clara Elizabeth HEALEY 34 Newington, Surrey,
Clara Louise HEALEY 8 Lambeth, Surrey, Scholar
Ellen Florence HEALEY 3 Newington, Surrey, Scholar
Emma Lucy HEALEY 1 Newington, Surrey, Scholar

[mallosa]

It didn't give his occupation at all, Pete

[peterd]

There is another John Neal in 1861 RG9/209/81/5, b1824, a shoe polisher b St Lukes living with wife Mary Ann and 5 children, John Thomas, Jane, Elizabeth, Fannie, Mary Ann in Finsbury. The ages of John Thomas, Jane and Elizabeth almost match the ages of John Neal and Manchester Jane's children. I have the baptism certificate for this Elizabeth which shows her parents as John Neal, shoe polisher, and Mary Ann Neal , dated 26/6/1852. I also have a marriage certificate for John Neal, shoemaker and Jane Donson in 1842 so Mary Ann is his second wife.

I've hunted for other BMD certificates without success. Is the second family a red herring despite the similarities? If so where are the children of Manchester Jane and John Neal? Any and all ideas appreciated!

1861: Blue Anchor Alley, Finsbury, St Luke, Middlesex
John T Neale 37 Head Shoe Poliser b.St Luke
Mary Ann Neale 24 Wife b.Hoxton
John Thomas Neale 18 Son b.St Luke
Jane Neale 16 Dau b.St Luke
Elizabeth Neale 9 Dau b.St Luke
James Neale 6 Son b.St Luke.
Mary Ann Neale 2 Dau b.St Luke

mary ann would off been 14 years old when she had elizabeth if census age is correct ?

what was john neale father called on wedding cert you have to jane and who were witnesses ?

came across this its got me more confused now ? (poss nowt to do with topic)

JOHN THOMAS NEALE
MARY ANN DUDLEY
Marriage: 10 APR 1853 Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwick,

[dianel]

1861: Blue Anchor Alley, Finsbury, St Luke, Middlesex
John T Neale 37 Head Shoe Poliser b.St Luke
Mary Ann Neale 24 Wife b.Hoxton
John Thomas Neale 18 Son b.St Luke
Jane Neale 16 Dau b.St Luke
Elizabeth Neale 9 Dau b.St Luke
James Neale 6 Son b.St Luke.
Mary Ann Neale 2 Dau b.St Luke

But think the John we're after is a farrier. Good job so unlikely to have changed it. Whoops, no sorry , he is a shoe maker. But the first John found in 1861 with a Jane was a farrier, so maybe this was the wrong John & Jane?