Joseph Smith - Help please

[snoopysue]

I can't find Joseph Smith before 1871, when he's living in Chapel Street, West Bromwich.

What I know so far:
Ralph was born about 1826 in Derby. Father was Ralph Smith, a publican (found the family in Derby in 1841, Joseph's not with them in 1851).

When I catch up with Joseph in 1871 he's living in Chapel Street, West Bromwich:
Chapel Street, West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Joseph Smith, Head, Mar, 44, Railway Plate Layer, Derbyshire Derby
Martha, Wife, Mar, 38, Warwicks Wilnecote
James, Son, 13, Errand boy,
Fred, Son, 6, Scholar
Frank, Son, 3, Scholar
Others born Staffs, W Bromwich

Wife Martha dies about 1873 (I'm waiting for a death cert for her)
Joseph remarries in 1875 to Mary Ann Knowles, who lived close by in Chapel Street. Occupation is carpenter

1881 Census
28, Chapel St, West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Joseph Smith, Head, Mar, 54, Ironworks Watchman, Derbyshire
Mary A, Wife, Mar, 39, Kent Deptford
Fred J, Son, Single, 16, Ironworks Labourer,
Elizabeth, Daur, Single, 16,
Frank, Son, Single, 13, Ironworks,
Sarah, Daur, Single, 9, Scholar,
Martha, Daur, Single, 3,
Jane, Daur, Single, 2,
Harriet Knowles, Sister In Law, Single, 27, Spiral Spring Maker,
Others born Staffs W Bromwich

1891
28, Chapel Street, West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Joseph Smith, Head, Mar, 64, Forge Labourer Water Works, Derby
Mary A, Wife, Mar, 49, London
Martha, Daur, 13, Scholar
Jane, Daur, 12, Scholar,
Walter, Son, 9, Scholar,
Others born Staffs West Bromwich

Joseph died in 1891. He was still living at 28 Chapel Street with wife Mary Ann, his occupation is journyman carpenter.

I'm mainly interested in his life with Martha, and their son James, as it's this line I'm descended from. I can't find a marriage for Joseph and Martha, or a birth for James. I'm assuming that Martha is James' mother, but this isn't necesarily the case. Also there's quite a gap between James and the next sibling.

Any thourghts???
Help gratefully recieved!!

[sp1]

Have found some possibles:

Only one in 1851:Joseph Smith, 25, unmarried, lodger, bricklayer, b Derby, Derbyshire, lodging with Hardwick family in Anderstaff Lane, Burton on Trent. None of the Hardwicks is named Martha so potential wife is not there, and children are all to young anyway.

[sp1]

In 1861 there are three Josephs b 1825/6 - where were the other two in 1851??

Here they are:
One a labourer with wife Catherine in Wilsons Lane, Spitalfileds.

Next with wife Emma, 32 (he is a fancy silk maker, children: William 16, Joseph 13, Emma 10, Mary A 8, john H 1month, Eliza 3, adress Court 6, Copelamt St, St Peters, Derby.

Last (with brother at 160 Francis St, Aston, Birmingham- family are :
William 38,silk chenille maker, b Derby, his wife Ann, 39 b Coventry, children: Mary A 12 b London St Judes, Henry 8 b derby, Charlotte 5, b Macclesfield Cheshire, Elizabeth 1 b Derby, and with them is Joseph 36, silk chenille maker, married (definitely says so on image), b Derby.

Can find no obvious Martha or their son James in 1861.

[snoopysue]

Thanks SP1

The Silk makers don't look likely, seems like to much of a change of occupation from silk maker to railway plate layer and later iron worker.

The wife Catherine could be a possibility, I've no evidence as to when Joseph married Martha, so he could have married before. Again I've no evidence as to James Smith's mother, and although the census is consistent as far as him being born in West Bromwich, the census isn't always reliable.

Looks like this one maybe a brickwall!!!

[sp1]

It looks difficult, and I agree the silkmakers look unlikely. I am puzzled as to why Martha and son James don't show up in 1861 - perhaps the whole family were simply missed completely from the census, but then why only one Joseph born Derby in the 1851 and three if them in 1861 - how does that work?! - there would even be 4 if Joseph/ Martha and James are completely missed off 1861.
Have you tried for a birth certificate for James specifying parents Joseph and Martha? - might be worth applying directly to West Bromwich first, or GRO if that fails.
James may well have been born in West Brom but perhaps over the border into another registration district - some of the boundaries are funny and aren't always what you might expect!
Also wonder whether the census enumarator put down a 'generic' place of birth for them (it happens) in 1861 which would explain why a birthplace search doesn't work - does anyone fancy working through about 1500 possible entries?

[snoopysue]

To be honest this one's always been a bit difficult, if it hadn't been for Joseph remarrying I'd have never tracked him down as far as I have.

James' birth has been consistent from 1871 to 1911, as has father Joseph's. You're right about boundry changes, might muddy the waters!!
One reason for them being missing on the 1861 census is always a mis-trancsription, but I think that's unlikely as I've tried several sources. I've even tried a first name search on the genealogist with no luck. They could have been missed off for one reason or another (some people are there twice, so why not be missing completely!)
I've even looked to see if there are any trees on ancestry that could help, but there's very few James smiths, and none with the correct parents, and no aparent Joseph Smiths at (strange I'd have expected at least one with the same approximate birth date).
As you say the record office might be the next point of search!!

[Northern Lass]

Do you want me to move this to Brickwalls?
or archive whilst you wait for whatever you have requested from record office.

[snoopysue]

Do you want me to move this to Brickwalls?
or archive whilst you wait for whatever you have requested from record office.

You can archive it NL, thanks.