"completed" Ernest E. GREAVES photo- 1880s?..school photo?

[expat66]

This is probably the oldest photo my family has in its possession....I was going to upload it to the forum... then realised I don't know anything about it
I'm guessing that it was taken some time in the 1880s?

Ernest Edward Greaves as a boy.jpg (53.76 KiB) Viewed 1475 times

The lad on the back row ... 4th one along... toward the right of the picture is supposed to be my great grandfather.. Ernest Edward GREAVES .. born in Birmingham in 1874
From the census and his marriage certificate, I know that he was living at 9 8 Court Warstone Lane , Birmingham ...between 1881 - 1897 .

Could this be a school photo? .. did they take school photos then?
If it is a school, where would it likely have been, bearing in mind that he lived in Warstone Lane?

He was a tinworker by the age of 17.... following in the footsteps of both his father and step father.... not a affluent family from what I can see on the censuses.

Maybe the photo is showing some other group?... a church group/ family group?
Any ideas greatly appreciated.

Thankyou
Expat

[gardener]

Lovely photo. It looks a bit casual for a school photo. and isn't that a dog on there?

[linell]

Looks like the boys all have some sort of flower in their lapels They all look too well dressed to be a School Photo, then there's the dog, goodness knows Warstone Lane is in the Jewellery Quarter, Hockley, you need to check with B'ham Archives about any local School's in the 1800's, you must have quite a list now for B'ham Archives. I suppose the picture could be a Private School, hence the dog, a Governess type place

HTH Linell.

[gardener]

I wondered about the label thing too but could not decide what it is. Is it clearer on the original?

[expat66]

Lovely photo. It looks a bit casual for a school photo. and isn't that a dog on there?

Yes ... I was wondering about the dog ( who seems to be lying on a rug)
Expat

[expat66]

I wondered about the label thing too but could not decide what it is. Is it clearer on the original?

I thought they might be flowers?
I will get my parents to have another look at the original see if it's any clearer
Expat

[expat66]

Talking of the flowers or labels reminded me that we do have this other photo of Ernest Edward taken some years later.
Another group photo... all blokes ... with something in their lapels?
Ernest is 5th from left on the back row.

Ernest Edward Greaves 5th from left back row.jpg (80.7 KiB) Viewed 1464 times

Don't know anything about this photo either!
I don't know whether my imagination is running away with me ... but is it possible that these are the same people ? the boys from the earlier photo now grown up?
Very difficult to pin down ages with all those moustaches and hats.
Anyone any good at 'facial recognition' stuff? ... comparing one photo with the other?

Going cross eyed now
Expat

[linell]

Looks like the boys all have some sort of flower in their lapels They all look too well dressed to be a School Photo, then there's the dog, goodness knows Warstone Lane is in the Jewellery Quarter, Hockley, you need to check with B'ham Archives about any local School's in the 1800's, you must have quite a list now for B'ham Archives. I suppose the picture could be a Private School, hence the dog, a Governess type place

HTH Linell.

DAME SCHOOLS was what I was thinking of:-


Dame Schools was a common tern used to describe small private schools that provided an education for working class children before they were old enough to work. These schools were usually run by an elderly woman who taught the children to read and write and other useful skills such as sewing. Fees were about 3d. a week and the quality of education that the children received varied enormously. Whereas some teachers provided a good education, others were no more than child-minders.

[expat66]

Linell,
Thankyou for the info.
That's very interesting .... never heard of Dame Schools before.... were they very common?
Expat

[linell]

Hi Expat, yes the Dame Schools were common, especially before Free Education came in. The Dog would make sense if it was a Dame School, i.e. inside some Ladies Home Linell.

[snoopysue]

I don't know whether my imagination is running away with me ... but is it possible that these are the same people ? the boys from the earlier photo now grown up?
Very difficult to pin down ages with all those moustaches and hats.
Anyone any good at 'facial recognition' stuff? ... comparing one photo with the other?

Going cross eyed now
Expat

There are 12 kids on the first photo, and 13 on the second! If they are the same bunch then I'd have expected the numbers to be the other way around! Although maybe someone was missing for the first shot.

[expat66]

Talking of the flowers or labels reminded me that we do have this other photo of Ernest Edward taken some years later.
Another group photo... all blokes ... with something in their lapels?
Ernest is 5th from left on the back row.

The attachment Ernest Edward Greaves 5th from left back row.jpg is no longer available

Don't know anything about this photo either!
I don't know whether my imagination is running away with me ... but is it possible that these are the same people ? the boys from the earlier photo now grown up?
Very difficult to pin down ages with all those moustaches and hats.
Anyone any good at 'facial recognition' stuff? ... comparing one photo with the other?

Going cross eyed now
Expat

We have had a closer look at this photo and many of the men are wearing a badge on their lapels ... this is a close up of one of the men.... not Ernest... but the badge looked clearer on this chaps lapel..

scan0002.jpg (24.61 KiB) Viewed 1421 times

Could this be a badge for apprenticeships/ guild/ union/ club/ something military??
Ernest was a tinworker ... could this be something to do with that?
On the back of the photo is... Baker-40 Kitchener Street, .... which I understand is in Winson Green
My Dad says there was a large park nearby there called Black Patch , where there was a large gypsy camp .. and that there was a rumour that Charlie Chaplin was born there?
( but now I'm getting side tracked!)

Anyway ... does anyone have any ideas on that badge? ... have to admit I'm pretty stuck
Many Thanks
Expat

[FarSide]

Maybe they are returned service men, poss a reunion..

I plugged into google

Baker-40 Kitchener Street Winson Green

Got back these...

http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=991718
Cemetery: Portsmouth Naval Memorial
Country: England
Area: Hampshire
Rank: Private
Official Number: PO/18278
Unit: H.M.S. "Vanguard." Royal Marine Light Infantry
Force: Royal Marines
Nationality: British
Details:
09/07/17 Aged 20 Plaque 27 Killed by internal explosion of vessel at Scapa Flow Son of T. and M. Baker, of 40, Kitchener St., Winson Green, Birmingham.


and this
http://best-maritime-crewing.info/catal ... 98_72.html
RMLI Private PO/18278 BAKER William Thomas 20 Son of T. and M. Baker of 40 Kitchener St., Winson Green, Birmingham.

[expat66]

Maybe they are returned service men, poss a reunion..

I plugged into google

Baker-40 Kitchener Street Winson Green

Got back these...

http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=991718
Cemetery: Portsmouth Naval Memorial
Country: England
Area: Hampshire
Rank: Private
Official Number: PO/18278
Unit: H.M.S. "Vanguard." Royal Marine Light Infantry
Force: Royal Marines
Nationality: British
Details:
09/07/17 Aged 20 Plaque 27 Killed by internal explosion of vessel at Scapa Flow Son of T. and M. Baker, of 40, Kitchener St., Winson Green, Birmingham.


and this
http://best-maritime-crewing.info/catal ... 98_72.html
RMLI Private PO/18278 BAKER William Thomas 20 Son of T. and M. Baker of 40 Kitchener St., Winson Green, Birmingham.

Gosh that's interesting FarSide ... thankyou for that
I don't know of any military connection with my great grandfather Ernest Edward GREAVES, who was born in 1874
... I suppose it is possible he could have done something in the war... maybe a reservist or something? ... he would have been about 40 years old at the start of the First World War.. I'd always assumed that he was too old to have joined up.
Maybe this William Baker was someone he worked with ... or a son of someone he knew?
Is it possible that William Baker was another tinworker?

I am wondering when the photo was taken .... anyone good at dating photos from style of dress/ moustaches etc?

All very interesting!
Thankyou
Expat

[FarSide]

I'd say this is him.. there's Tin makers on the page
1901
22 Shrubbies, Birmingham
Tom Baker 42 - Steel pen toolmaker - b Sheffield
Sarah Baker 36
Tom Baker 10
William Baker 7
Ellen G Baker 1
others b Birmingham

Is there anything else on the back of the photo?