ARC TBC - John Owens c1800 Flint or Chester?

[sue7465]

This is a brick wall I hit about 4 years ago during my research.
I can't find a baptism for John Owens c1800
Or marriage for John Owens to Sarah Hughes.
I know he married Sarah Hughes (as I have their son John's birth cert) but can't find a marriage. I have marriage transcripts for Halkyn 1813 - 1837, but no sign of Sarah marrying a John Owens. I also have marriage transcripts for Flint 1754 - 1837, again, no sign of a marriage between John Owens and Sarah Hughes.

Here are the census I have of the family....


1841 - address - Tros Y Mynydd, Flint Mountain, Flintshire
John Owens 40 Farmer
Sarah Owens 30
Jane Owens 3
Mary Ann Owens 2
Elizabeth Owens 5mth
(all born Flintshire)

1851 - address - Bryn Gwyn, Flint Mountain, Flintshire
John Owens 51 Farmer 22 acres - Chester
Sarah Owens 42 - Halkyn
Jane Owens 13 - Flint
Mary Owens 11 - Flint
Elizabeth Owens 10 - Flint
Thomas Owens 8 - Flint
Richard Owens 6 - Flint
Margaret Owens 4 - Flint
John Owens 1 - Flint
Robert Gresty 2 - Flint (Servant - Farm Labourer)

1861 - address - White Houses, Flint
John Owens 61 Sawyer - Flint
Sarah Owens 52 - Halkyn
Mary Ann Owens 21 - Flint
Thomas Owens 18 - Flint
Richard Owens 16 - Flint
John Owens 12 - Flint
Elizabeth Owens 2 - Flint (Grandaughter)

1871 - address - Ty Gwyn, Flint Mountain, Flintshire
John Owens 71 Sawyer - Flint
Sarah Owens 63 - Flint
Thomas Owens 28 - Flint
John Owens 21 - Flint
Elizabeth Owens 12 - Flint (Grandaughter)

Can't find John Owens or his wife Sarah after 1871, presumed to be deceased.
The 1851 census states John was born Chester....although, the rest state Flint.
There are quite a few John Owens, and it did get confusing when researching! I know the above census are correct as I know the houses the family lived in for a few generations!

Any help......or suggestions.....much appreciated!

[linell]

Hi Sue, John Owens could have been baptised at a Non Conformist Chapel or not at all Where did you search for his Marriage, not all Parish Registers are on the IGI. I would contact Flint Archives and ask them if they know of any local Parishes which are not available on line. There again not all records have survived, some Registers were lost or damaged, family search can be a bit of a hit or miss. Jimmy will be along later, if anyone can find a Marriage he can. Linell.

[MarkCDodd]

None in the non-conformist for Flintshire.

Quite a few in the Non Conformist in Wales.

Piece Description Register of Births and Baptisms at the Old Congregational Chapel in the parish of Llanbrynmair, Montgomeryshire from 1762 to 1837
TNA Reference RG4 / Piece 4068 / Folio 18
[Chapel/Registry]
Full Name John Owens
Date of Baptism 21 September 1801
Place of Baptism
Date of Birth
Place of Abode
Parish of Abode Trefolwern
County of Abode
Registration Date
Registration Town/County Llanbrynmair, Montgomeryshire
Ceremony Performed by John Roberts
Godparents
Godfather
Godmother
Parents
Father Owen Owens
Father's Profession
Mother Mary Owens
Mother's Maiden Name
Mother's Parish
Date of Marriage
Place of Marriage
Maternal Parents
Name(s)
Profession
Town & County
Paternal Parents
Name(s)
Profession
Pedigree Chart

Looking at the Parish Register...there is not more information than i the transcript.

[Jimmy]

There is this one plus about 80 others between 1795 and 1805.

Name: John Owen.
Baptism/Christening Date: 08 May 1800.
Baptism/Christening Place: LLANFAETHLU, ANGLESEY,WALES.
Father's Name: Owen Jones.
Mother's Name: Jane.
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C09000-1.
System Origin: Wales-ODM.
Source Film Number: 104524.
Collection: Wales Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907.


From,
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsea ... t.html#p=0

[MarkCDodd]

Flint Mountain is in the registration district of Holywell so I would say this is Sarah's death.

Civil Registration event: Death
Name: OWENS, Sarah
Registration District: Holywell
County: Flintshire
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 69
Volume No: 11B
Page No: 219

And John's

Civil Registration event: Death
Name: OWENS, John
Registration District: Holywell
County: Flintshire
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 75
Volume No: 11B
Page No: 228

[MarkCDodd]

They are on the OneWorldTree

http://trees.ancestry.com.au/owt/person.aspx?pid=125354282

[Jimmy]

Marriages Mar 1838.
Evans Sarah. Carmarthen. 26 526.
Francis Evan. Carmarthen. 26 526.
Harris Anna. Carmarthen. 26 526.
Lewis Ann. Carmarthen. 26. 526.
Lloyd George. Carmarthen. 26. 526.
Owen John. Carmarthen. 26. 526.
Roberts Stephen. Carmarthen. 26. 526.
Williams Sophia. Carmarthen. 26. 526.

Marriages Dec 1838.
HUGHES Robert. Anglesey. 27. 601.
HUGHES Sarah. Anglesey. 27. 601.
JONES Margaret. Anglesey. 27. 601.
OWEN John. Anglesey. 27. 601.
ROWLANDS Jane . Anglesey. 27. 601.
WILLIAMS Ann. Anglesey. 27. 601.
WILLIAMS Hugh. Anglesey. 27 601.
WILLIAMS Owen. Anglesey. 27 601.

[snoopysue]

On the face of it Carmarthen and Angelsey are probably too far away.

I can't see any marriages on the Wales county index:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... lint.htm#F

There are several nonconformist chapels not on that site, I lived in Sychdyn where there were two chapels, and neither is mentioned.
There's probably a good chance the marriage was non-conformist. It may be an idea to check out Denbighshire too, as if memory serves me right both counties had small isolated pockets not connected to the main part of the county. Have you tried cheshire? It's only over the river.

[Jimmy]

I don't think non-conformist were allowed to do marriages at that time, but I may be wrong.

[sue7465]

Wow, thanks for the replies guys

Ok, firstly, I've searched through Parish Transcripts (which I got from the Clwyd Family History society).
Also, I live only a mile away from the Records Office and have trawled the archives for marriages and births.
I have a feeling he may not have been baptised, as he and Sarah had several children and I've not found baptisms for them either, except maybe one.
However, I would have thought a marriage would have shown up somewhere!

I have looked at the Owens family in Anglesey, but it is a different Owens family.
I have looked for marriages and baptism's in Chester, but to no avail...although, I only looked on Cheshire BMD....not the archives
I think maybe I need to consider the possibility of non conformist.

As for the deaths....yes I had the death for John Owens in 1875....but I didn't have Sarah in 1878, so thanks for that.

I hate it when bricks walls STAY brick walls with no way past!!!

Thanks anyway

[MarkCDodd]

Most of the non-conformist Parishes in Wales handed in their records.

There are a couple in Flintshire that are in the index.

The marriage is not the the non-conformist index....but that doesn't mean they didn't marry in a non-conformist.

They may have married in a Parish that is yet to be indexed.

[linell]

There were no Non Conformist Marriages before Civil Registration in July 1837.

Linell.

[MarkCDodd]

Excuse me? There have always been non-conformist marriages.

Just looking at Owens.....there are 231 marriages in the current Non-Conformist registers. The earliest being 1679.

The registers were not handed in till 1837.

[linell]

Excuse me? There have always been non-conformist marriages.

Just looking at Owens.....there are 231 marriages in the current Non-Conformist registers. The earliest being 1679.

The registers were not handed in till 1837.

You should check your sources see here:-


Non-conformist Churches could register christenings (baptisms) and burials
because they related to their religious function and took place in a building
licensed for Religious Worship. They could not register births, marriages or
deaths because they were state functions and came under various Acts of
Parliament.

After 1896 a Non-Conformist Church could ask that its minister should become
a registrar [= 'Authorised Person']. The Trustees provided a safe in which
to keep the registers as required by law and from then onwards records of
marriages were kept in the Church. But those who wished to marry in that Church
had to obtain a certificate or licence from the Local Registrar who checked
their legal right to marry. No Authorised Person could perform a marriage
without that certificate or licence in hand while the ceremony was performed.

Marriage is a function of the State - not of the Church.

Between 1754 and 1837 the only places to legally marry were in a parish (C
of E) church, a Jewish synagoge or a Quaker Meeting House. That was the
only period when Non-Conformist marriages (also RC) ones were not legal.
However that did not stop them taking place, although if the couple were
worried about the legitimacy of any children then they also married in the
parish church.

After 1837 it became legal for people to be married in any licensed
premises, and while this covered most C of E churches it also included NC
and RC churches or chapels.

[MarkCDodd]

Nothing wrong with my sources. I was 100% right.

Marriages took place despite the legality or otherwise.

Saying marriages did not legally take place is different than them not taking place at all.

You will occasionally find a paranoid couple marry in their non-conformist as well as a "legal" church but most were happy that their marraige was binding under God's law.

I do not think there was ever a case where a child was deemed to be illigitimate because the parents married as Lutheran or Baptist etc