Genealogy Forum UK

This is connected to a couple of other threads I have posted.
I am just about to send off for a marriage certficate but thought I would run it past you guys first......

I am trying to work out how Francis MINCHIN relates to James GREAVES ( she is listed as cousin on 1871 census)

1871, Birmingham
James Greaves, head, 34, Tin Plate Worker
Ann Maria, wife, 31...her name was HIPKISS before she married)
Bertha, daur, ? months,
Francis Minchin? (female) cousin, mar, 37, Pepr Pen Maker
John Minchin?, 2nd cousin, 14
All born Birmingham

I think that Francis Minchin may have been Frances ARDEN before she got married to Alfred MINCHIN ( 1861 and 1881 census )

Alfred MINCHIN marriage record for 1855 Kings Norton District
Frances ARDEN " " " " " " "

1861 census Well Lane, Edgbaston, Birmingham
MINCHIN Alfred M 26 born 1835 Button Turner born B'ham
MINCHIN Francis M 27 born 1834 Paper box maker born Harborne
MINCHIN John Francis son 6 born 1855 born Edgbaston

1881 census 3, 7 House, Hospital St Court, Birmingham
MINCHIN Alfred M 45 born 1836 Ivory Button Sawyer born B'ham
MINCHIN Fanny M 47 born 1834 Paper Box Maker born Harborne

I haven't been able to find a Francis or Frances ARDEN on any census....I was thinking of sending off for marriage certificate as the next step.

On a previous post someone ( was it MarkCDodd?) suggested that the HADLEYS might be a possible link?.... I haven't managed to find a link yet.

Many Thanks
Expat

Frances may have been married to an Arden before and so it wouldn't have been her birth name -- you would need to find a marriage X Arden to Frances Y with a death for X Arden before 1855 -- if this was true she will be a widow on the 1855 certificate and hopefully it would give her father's surname and hence her maiden name

Maths girl wrote:Frances may have been married to an Arden before and so it wouldn't have been her birth name -- you would need to find a marriage X Arden to Frances Y with a death for X Arden before 1855 -- if this was true she will be a widow on the 1855 certificate and hopefully it would give her father's surname and hence her maiden name

Good Thinking Maths girl!
I will have a look at that..... it would certainly explain why I can't find a Frances ARDEN

I'm thinking that the certificate would be a big help.. so will probably send off for it
Thanks
Expat

1861 says Fanny born Harborne,

A possible,

1851. Harborne Heath, Harborne, Staffordshire.
John Harding 46. Farm labourer. Norton, Worcester.
Phoebe Harding 43. Harborne.
Frances Harding 16. Dau. Pin B?y maker.Harborne.

Jimmy wrote:1861 says Fanny born Harborne,

A possible,

1851. Harborne Heath, Harborne, Staffordshire.
John Harding 46. Farm labourer. Norton, Worcester.
Phoebe Harding 43. Harborne.
Frances Harding 16. Dau. Pin B?y maker.Harborne.

Thanks for that Jimmy...interesting...

It has got me thinking....I have come up with a theory...
If Frances MIINCHIN was the cousin of James GREAVES ( on that 1871 census)..... then maybe her mother was a GREAVES ( a sister of James's father Matthew?).... she would have been Phoebe GREAVES?
Matthew GREAVES(born 1816 Harborne) was the son of Austin GREAVES(born 1774 Harborne) and Frances COALES (born 1773 Birmingham)

I have so far found the following children for Austin and Frances... ( from IGI)
Charles GREAVES (1797)
Elizabeth GREAVES (1797)
Austin GREAVES (1807)
Martha GREAVES (1816)
Matthew (1816)

.... there is no Phoebe there ,but maybe I am missing some children?... there is a 10 year then a 9 year age gap in that list?
and the name of Austin GREAVES (b1774) mother was Phebe... so it is possible that he would have called one of his daughters Phoebe?

maybe just a 'wild theory'...... I think I will have to send off for that 'MINCHIN' marriage certificate to get something more concrete

Now my brain needs a rest!
Expat

I think you need it after all that expat, sorry I lost the plot half way through.

Linell.

from Family Search
marriage:30 Jul 1827 -Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick, England
spouse:John Harden
record title:England Marriages, 1538-1973
groom's name:John Harden
bride's name:Phebe Greaves
marriage date:30 Jul 1827
marriage place:Aston Juxta Birmingham,Warwick,England
indexing project (batch) number:M01168-1
system origin:England-ODM
source film number:507832

family search

birth:06 Jun 1833 -ZION CHAPEL NEW HALL STREET-PARTICULAR BAPTIST, BIRMINGHAM, WARWICK, ENGLAND
residence:1833 -Warwick, England
parents:John Harding, Phebe Graves
record title:England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name:Frances Harding
gender:Female
birth date:06 Jun 1833
birthplace: ZION CHAPEL NEW HALL STREET-PARTICULAR BAPTIST,BIRMINGHAM,WARWICK,ENGLAND

birth:24 Apr 1805
residence:1805 -Warwick, England
parents:Austin Greaves, Frances
record title:England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name:Phebe Greaves
gender:Female
baptism/christening date:03 Oct 1805
baptism/christening place:SAINT MARTIN,BIRMINGHAM,WARWICK,ENGLAND
birth date:24 Apr 1805
father's name:Austin Greaves
mother's name:Frances
indexing project (batch) number:C01072-8
system origin:England-ODM
source film number:919767

Thankyou so much cid!
I never managed to find all this info. ( didn't try those surname variations!)
... also realise I had narrowed my search too much by only looking at the Christenings in Harborne ( as that is where the other 'GREAVES' children were Christened)

very exciting!
... wonder if there are some other GREAVES I have missed?

now is my theory about Francis MINCHIN correct?... what else do I need to tie this up?
... I suppose the MINCHIN marriage certificate would be the first step?

I also have some theories on how the 'Birmingham GREAVES' link up with the "Black Country GREAVES'..... might start another thread on that when I have a mo' ...
Thanks again!
Expat

Have sent off for the 'MINCHIN' marriage certficate.... should get it in a few days , hopefully!
Expat

Got the marriage certificate back....now a bit confused?

....Frances' name is down as ARDEN...... not HARDEN or HARDING.... and her father's name is not listed ( neither is her husband's)
... is she the daughter of John HARDING ( or HARDEN) and Phebe GREAVES ?

one of the witnesses is down as Frances HIPKISS
.... I am wondering if this Frances HIPKISS is mother of Ann Maria HIPKISS ( Frances HIPKISS's maiden name was GREAVES....maybe she is another child of Austin GREAVES 1774-1862 and Frances COALES 1773- ?).... I haven't managed to work out who this Frances GREAVES was ?

I have attached a hand drawn tree I have done to try and make sense of all this.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Need Help
Thanks
Expat

expat66 wrote:Got the marriage certificate back....now a bit confused?

....Frances' name is down as ARDEN...... not HARDEN or HARDING.... and her father's name is not listed ( neither is her husband's)
... is she the daughter of John HARDING ( or HARDEN) and Phebe GREAVES ?
Expat

I'n confused now xp, are you saying that you have a marriage certificate with just a wife and no husband on it????? Not come across that one before. No father listed in not uncommon. Does it say deceased?

Arden, Harding, Harden, Ardin, Arding all sound pretty similar, and as most of these people were illiterate it could have been spelt differently on every certificate you get.

cid wrote:

expat66 wrote:Got the marriage certificate back....now a bit confused?

....Frances' name is down as ARDEN...... not HARDEN or HARDING.... and her father's name is not listed ( neither is her husband's)
... is she the daughter of John HARDING ( or HARDEN) and Phebe GREAVES ?
Expat

I'n confused now xp, are you saying that you have a marriage certificate with just a wife and no husband on it????? Not come across that one before. No father listed in not uncommon. Does it say deceased?

Arden, Harding, Harden, Ardin, Arding all sound pretty similar, and as most of these people were illiterate it could have been spelt differently on every certificate you get.

Oops..... didn't word that post very well did I
I meant that Alfred MINCHIN's father wasn't listed
..... the boxes for father's name and profession were just blank for both bride and groom.

Husband thinks I have lost my mind.... I think I agree with him!
Expat