Genealogy Forum UK

Because the last thread was getting way too long, I think it's best to start a new one - with what information I have and what information I need to fill in the gaps.

Edwin Toy (b abbt 1860) & Ellen Walford (b 1853/1858) - these were my Great Great Grandparents and the last of my family to actually reside in Quinton, Worcestershire. Thomas Toy (b 1883) - was my Great Grandfather and he with his younger brother David Toy (b 1885) were both moved to Chester, and in particular an Industrial School. When exactly I don't know - but I do know that they appeared in 1891 in Worc, and in 1901 they were in Chester (which is where I am from). There was also a younger sister called Eliza (b 1888) - now she appears on the 1901 census living with her Grandmother Eliza C Toy (b 1826) - but I have not been able to locate her since.

Now the mystery is why the boys moved to Chester and why the sister moved to her Grandmothers house. Locally to my family there is not much information as my Grandparents on my fathers side died when I was born, but there is a Great Aunt I can speak to, which I hope to soon, who will be able to shed some light on the situation.

1. Edwin Toy

Why the plot thickens though is that there is an Edwin Toy (b 1862) - who had the same occupation as Edwin Toy (b 1860) - they were both Bricklayers. Edwin Toy (b 1862) - doesn't appear on the 1861,71,81 or 91 census, but does appear on the 1901, 1911 - where he is married to a Georgina (b 1872) in 1901, but in 1911 he is married to a Florence (b 1872). I personally think that Georgina and Florence are the same person, just a name change - but I can't be certain.

Edwin Toy (b 1860) does not appear on the 1901 or 1911 census. Now is that a massive coincidence or is it safe to say that both Edwin's are actually the same person?

I have a death record for an Edwin Toy in 1937, age shows at 75 - which implied DOB is 1862.

2. Ellen Walford

Now Ellen also vanishes from the census in 1901 and 1911 - but I do have a death record of an Ellen Toy (d 1921) with an age of 68, which would give her DOB as 1853 - which of course is 5 years difference then what I initially assumed it was (1858 being what I assumed) - now this also could be an error on the death record, she may have been 63 which would give her a DOB of 1858. Now there may be 2 Ellen Walfords as I had parents for Ellen as Thomas and Mary Walford, but a hint in Ancestry.co.uk has thrown up a different lineage - with John Walford and Caroline Hughes as her parents.

If I can iron out these creases and ascertain that this Ellen Walford who died Ellen Toy in 1921 is my ancestor it would throw up some interesting thought processes as to what happened.

The fact she kept her married name says that she didn't remarry and perhaps died a bitter woman - and that Edwin had an affair and caused the family some deep trauma. It's certainly a flashpoint in my family history and one that I am determined to get to the bottom of, so if anyone has any thoughts ideas, new or old - I'd love to hear about them.

Thanks for reading.

Nick

On the 1911 census, Nick, does it say how long Edwin and Florence have been married?

Births Jun 1860
BRETTELL Sarah Ann Stourbridge 6c 167
GOULD Henry Stourbridge 6c 167
Hadley Joseph Stourbridge 6c 167
KIRTON Joseph Stourbridge 6c 167
TOMBS Thomas Stourbridge 6c 167
Toy Edwin Stourbridge 6c 167
WILLETTS Henry Stourbridge 6c 167
WILLIAMS Harry Stourbridge 6c 167

Deaths Mar 1937
Toye Edwin 75 Birmingham 6d 140

Deaths Dec 1921
Brown John 86 Stourbridge 6c 52
Compson Josiah 61 Stourbridge 6c 52
Hickman Sarah M 34 Stourbridge 6c 52
Parkes Joseph 68 Stourbridge 6c 52
Toye Ellen 68 Stourbridge 6c 52
Sending for these would really help
1911
TOYE, Edwin Head Married
13 years M 49 1862 Bricklayer Birmingham
TOYE, Florence A Wife Married
13 years F 39 1872 Birmingham
TOYE, Fanny Daughter F 12 1899 School Birmingham
TOYE, Edwin Son M 4 1907 Birmingham
TOYE, Marian G Daughter F 1 1910 Birmingham

6 Bk 23 Denmark St Aston Manor

rockyfowler wrote: 1911
TOYE, Edwin Head Married
13 years M 49 1862 Bricklayer Birmingham
TOYE, Florence A Wife Married
13 years F 39 1872 Birmingham
TOYE, Fanny Daughter F 12 1899 School Birmingham
TOYE, Edwin Son M 4 1907 Birmingham
TOYE, Marian G Daughter F 1 1910 Birmingham

6 Bk 23 Denmark St Aston Manor

A Marriage for Edwin and Florence is proving difficult to find in 1898 ie when they said they were married! as is birth of Fanny in 1899 - however

Edwin Toye
Year of Registration: 1906
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Aston (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d

Might be a certificate worth getting for Florence's maiden name
Page: 356

Both born about the same time as 1911.

1901. 2 house, back of 82 Smth St, Birmingham.
Edwin Toye 39. Bricklayer. born Netherton.
Georgina Toye 29. born Scotland.

So do we think Georgina and Florence are 2 different people?

In 1911 where was Florence born.

Jimmy wrote:In 1911 where was Florence born.

Ditto marks for Birmingham

Maths girl wrote:

Jimmy wrote:In 1911 where was Florence born.

Ditto marks for Birmingham

But that may not be true. I only think that they may be the same person because of their ages.

But also Edwin the original wasn't born in Birmingham, but the other Edwin was - and I believe they are the same person, unless the other Edwin appears on census prior to 1901 - I'm definitely leaning towards them being the same one, and thus my Edwin.

NickToye wrote:So do we think Georgina and Florence are 2 different people?

My gut reaction is that they are different and that Georgina and Edwin split up/she dies?-- then he lives with Florence as man and wife bringing up her daughter as his own.

Pure supposition but it could explain the difficulty in finding records. -- Edwin 1907 birth certificate should give the maiden name of his mother which might be illuminating

I think I am going to need to spend some money on some evidence.

It all does point to this Edwin, being the original Edwin. The census pattern alone has me 90% convinced.

In 1901 on the census, Ellen Toye appears to be in an institution of some sort at Wordsley - probably the Workhouse:

Ellen Toye Widow 49 General Servant Domestic b. Kidderminster

dianel wrote:In 1901 on the census, Ellen Toye appears to be in an institution of some sort at Wordsley - probably the Workhouse:

Ellen Toye Widow 49 General Servant Domestic b. Kidderminster

Well this is something I haven't found before. Ellen was made a widow. The age is right for my Ellen Toy (nee Walford). I'm going to add this as a fact.

But why can't I find any evidence for Edwin dying, and why do I find evidence of a closely matched Edwin living in 1901 and 1911? Maybe Ellen put down Widow because Edwin cheated on her and she wanted him to be dead.

Interesting, thanks very much.

Nick moving this to Brickwalls to chip away at

I think I remember reading that some people rounded ages up or down to the nearest 5 so if you were 41, 42 you would say 40 and if 59 you would say age 60 on some of the early census returns. This could explain why you are getting back to a round number of 1860 and later on a more accurate age is recorded. No doubt someone will correct me if this is gibberish but I think that could explain it.