Genealogy Forum UK

Hello,

I am new to this site and I am looking to see if anyone can help my family solve a mystery or at least tell me how I might go about it.

When my Grandfather (John Swain) died in 1980 he called my father to his bedside and asked him to never reveal to my Grandmother that he was born out of wedlock and to keep his birth certificate from her. She has since passed away and I have started to look into my family tree. Things are straight forward as far back as my great grandmother (Emmie Swain) but we have no record of who my great grandfather was. She married a "Charles Mackman" at some point but we dont know if he was the father of my grandfather. My father and I have the surname Mackman but my grandfathers birth certifcate shows the name "Swain". We know that Emmie was employed by a family in Wem, Shropshire and wondered if my grandfather may be the illigitmate son of the master of the house? Did Charles Mackman marry Emmie after the birth and is he the father? Can anyone help me find out who my great grandfather really is? I have attached the family tree to date.

Many thanks

Dan

here the marriage you got

Marriages Sep 1926

BALL Gwenllian S Mackman Atcham 6a 1540
Mackman Charles W Ball Atcham 6a 1540

looks like john was registered under his mothers name

Births Dec 1915
SWAIN John W SWAIN Atcham 6a 924


were was emmie in 1911 poss servant ?

Poss
1911
CROFT, ELIZABETH HEAD WIDOWER F 87 HOUSE KEEPER WHITE GRITT SALOP
CROFT, HARRY SON SINGLE M 24 WAGGONER ON FARM MARTON BEACH SALOP
CROFT, TOM SON SINGLE M 20 WAGGONER ON FARM BIN WESTON SALOP
SWAIN, EMMIE NIECE F 14 HADNALL SALOP

peterd wrote:here the marriage you got

Marriages Sep 1926

BALL Gwenllian S Mackman Atcham 6a 1540
Mackman Charles W Ball Atcham 6a 1540

Is this saying Emmie married in 1926? Can you translate what you have put above - is it a marriage between Charles Mackman & Gwenllian Ball? What year was that?

peterd wrote:looks like john was registered under his mothers name

Births Dec 1915
SWAIN John W SWAIN Atcham 6a 924


were was emmie in 1911 poss servant ?

If my Grandfather John was born and registered in his own name - why are my father and I Mackman's? There is a link between Charles Mackman and Emmie Swain but not until after he was born?

We believe Emmie was a servant or some sort of staff to a local family but we never new who or where exactly. Most of our family seem to roiginate from around the area of Wem in Shropshire.

FarSide wrote:Poss
1911
CROFT, ELIZABETH HEAD WIDOWER F 87 HOUSE KEEPER WHITE GRITT SALOP
CROFT, HARRY SON SINGLE M 24 WAGGONER ON FARM MARTON BEACH SALOP
CROFT, TOM SON SINGLE M 20 WAGGONER ON FARM BIN WESTON SALOP
SWAIN, EMMIE NIECE F 14 HADNALL SALOP

Is this saying she was related to these people or worked for them? Is it definitley our Emmie?

Hi Dan
There were 2 Emmie Swain's on the 1911 (this is exact spelling tho)

HOUSEHOLD SWAIN EMMIE F 1897 14 Atcham Shropshire - same area isn't it, dob is right, got to be the one posted
HOUSEHOLD SWAIN EMMIE F 1883 28 Blackburn Lancashire

Maybe the father was the owner of this farm as she is living as a niece to the House keeper
Dan you need to have a look at the original page on the 1911. I only posted the view of the transcript, you will need to buy credits for this tho..

This is the address of the place -:
Address MERRINGTON BOMERE HEATH County Shropshire
District Atcham Subdistrict St Mary
Enumeration District 20 Parish Preston Gubbalds

Poss
1911
CROFT, ELIZABETH HEAD WIDOWER F 87 HOUSE KEEPER WHITE GRITT SALOP
CROFT, HARRY SON SINGLE M 24 WAGGONER ON FARM MARTON BEACH SALOP
CROFT, TOM SON SINGLE M 20 WAGGONER ON FARM BIN WESTON SALOP
SWAIN, EMMIE NIECE F 14 HADNALL SALOP

Poss
Batch # I025718
Emmie Swain
Christening: 07 MAR 1897 Hadnall, Shropshire, England
Parents:
Father: William Swain
Mother: Elizabeth Swain

Have you checked the original parish register for the christening of your Grandfather. I think I read on here somewhere there are often clues left by the vicar such as a name written along side the official name, especially if the father was local. Worth a look if you haven't cjhecked yet and only have the GRO cert

Dan Mackman wrote:

peterd wrote:here the marriage you got

Marriages Sep 1926

BALL Gwenllian S Mackman Atcham 6a 1540
Mackman Charles W Ball Atcham 6a 1540

Is this saying Emmie married in 1926? Can you translate what you have put above - is it a marriage between Charles Mackman & Gwenllian Ball? What year was that?

i picked up the wrong charles to start with that charles & kate son

this might be an earlier marriage for emmie

Marriages Mar 1921

Light William Swain Atcham 6a 1396
Swain Emmie Light Atcham 6a 1396

Thats really interesting - A Mr Light was talked about by another relative recently as the husband of Emmie so that makes sense too. I have sent an email to the Parish church in Wem to enquire about the christening records for John Swain. The thing that I cant figure out is why we have the name Mackman when Emmie married Charles in 1948 at the age of 51. John swain was born in 1915 When Emmie was 18, Married Mr Light in 1926 at age 29 who later died (date of death unknown), then remarries to Charles Mackman in 1948 8 years after John gets married to Olive and 3 years after her Grandson Phil (my father is born). This seems to be too bigger a gap (33 years) for John Swain to take the name Mackman having already courted & married Olive for some time and had children as a Mackman already. I guess the only clue will be from the parish records if at all. As I see it there could be several possibilities for John Swains Father:

William Light
Charles Mackman
Tom Croft (not sure if i have understood if he is family or not)
Harry Croft (not sure if i have understood if he is family or not)

I have to say, I cant thank you all enough for helping me with this family mystery. I have very little experience in all of this and you have helped me understand so much more.

i think if he taken the name mackman before his mother married charles then there a stong possibility that he is charles son why else would you change your name from swain to mackman, unless there was some think in charles will ? did charles leave a will as it might have some think in there, if you can track down a copy ?


there is another poss explination that charles first wife was ill when he took up with emmie who may of been helping him to look after his wife,(this has happen before) once his wife found out emmie was having his kid she was forced out. he wasnt in a possition to marry her until 1926 by that time emmie was married so they didnt marry until emmie first husband left or died ?

How can I find out when William Light died? I have no other info than his name and date of marriage as above?