Genealogy Forum UK

Hi,

I've been researching the children of my ancestor Joseph BAKER (1815-1888) who was a paver from Lichfield. He moved to Claines and then Birmingham etc etc. I've managed to track down the life stories for all his children: Arthur Samuel (1854-1891), Alice (1852-1905), Joseph Abel (1849-1905) and Thirza (1846-1927) ... all with the exception of Theresa BAKER who was born 30 sept 1842 (I know this from her birth certificate).

For some reason the census records keep getting Thirza and Theresa muddled! For instance on the 1851 cencus it says Thersa (thirza) - aged 4 (b. around 1847), but no mention of Theresa. In the 1861 census it then says Theresa - aged 18, servant for William and Martha Garner.

Could somebody with a better understanding on census's and genealogy shed some light on this? Are Thirza and Theresa the same person with just the dates on the Census' being wrong?

Hope this makes sense.
Thanks,
Darren

Theresa and Thirza are together in the 1851 census but never after that.

The census page is hard to read and Ancestry says Susan Baker but they never had a child called Susan.

FMP is closer.

1851 census transcription details for: 11, Moor Field Street, Tything Of Whistones Claines, Worcester
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 2042
Folio: 337
Page: 13
Reg. District: Worcester
Sub District: Worcester North
Parish: Tything of Whistones Claines
Enum. District: 1C
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Worcester
Address: 11, Moor Field Street, Tything Of Whistones Claines, Worcester
County: Worcestershire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
BAKER, Joseph Head Married M 35 1816 Pavier Litchfield, Staffordshire
BAKER, Ann Wife Married F 34 1817 Worcestershire
BAKER, Tresa Daughter F 8 1843 Scholar Worcestershire
BAKER, Thirsa Daughter F 4 1847 Worcestershire
BAKER, Joseph A Son M 2 1849 Worcestershire

1861 it is clearly Theresa at home with mum and dad.

1861 census transcription details for: Sheepwash Lane, Tipton

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09
Piece: 2044
Folio: 107
Page: 3
Reg. District: Dudley
Sub District: 2 Tipton
Parish: Tipton
Enum. District: 21
Ecclesiastical District: St Martins
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Sheepwash Lane, Tipton
County: Staffordshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
BAKER, Joseph Head Married M 45 1816 Paviour Lichfield, Staffordshire
BAKER, Maria Wife Married F 34 1827 Laundress Worcester
BAKER, Theresa Daughter Unmarried F 15 1846 Domestic Servant Worcester
BAKER, Joseph Son Unmarried M 13 1848 Labourer At Water Work Worcester
BAKER, Allice Daughter Unmarried F 9 1852 Scholar Worcester
BAKER, Arthur Son Unmarried M 17 1844 Scholar Worcester

Her sister is working as a Domestic.

1861 census transcription details for: 209, Bradford Street, Aston, Birmingham

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09
Piece: 2171
Folio: 58
Page: 2
Reg. District: Aston
Sub District: 1 Deritend
Parish: Aston
Enum. District: 12
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Birmingham
Address: 209, Bradford Street, Aston, Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
GARNER, William Head Married M 43 1818 Publican Wighton, Leicestershire
GARNER, Martha Wife Married F 41 1820 Pitsea, Hampshire
BAKER, Teresa Servant Unmarried F 18 1843 House Servant Worcester, Worcestershire

1871 it is Thirza at home with dad.

1871 census transcription details for: Moors, Whistones, Worcester

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 3049
Folio: 59
Page: 16
Reg. District: Worcester
Sub District: Worcester, North
Parish: Whistones
Enum. District: 3
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Worcester
Address: Moors, Whistones, Worcester
County: Worcestershire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
BAKER, Joseph Head M 55 1816 Staffordshire
BAKER, Thursa Daughter F 25 1846 Worcestershire
BAKER, Arthur Son M 16 1855 Worcestershire

I agree, two girls with confusing names

Births Jun 1846
Baker Therza Worcester 18 583

Births Dec 1842
Baker Theresa Worcester 18 489

Name: Thirza Baker
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 27 Dec 1846
Christening Place: Worcester, Worcestershire, England
Father's Name: Joseph Baker
Mother's Name: Ann

Name: Theresa Baker
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 6 Nov 1842
Christening Place: Worcester, Worcestershire, England
Father's Name: Joseph Baker
Mother's Name: Ann

Theresa can't be found as a Baker after the 1871 census.

So she died or married or moved away.

There are no suitable deaths in Staffordshire, Worcestershire or Warwickshire between 1871 and 1881.

There are several possible marriages.

Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: BAKER, Theresa
Registration district: Aston
County: Warwickshire
Year of registration: 1871
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 6D
Page no: 546

MarriageFinder: Theresa Baker married one of the following people:

HODGKINS, Richard

WALKER, William

STEVENS, Susan


Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: BAKER, Theresa
Registration district: Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Year of registration: 1874
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 6D
Page no: 266

MarriageFinder: Theresa Baker married one of the following people:

POPE, Charles

WALLITER, William

JONES, Elizabeth

Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: BAKER, Teresa
Registration district: Dudley
County: Staffordshire
Year of registration: 1871
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 6C
Page no: 119

MarriageFinder: Teresa Baker married one of the following people:

TREVES, Noah

WOODHALL, Peter

JONES, Prudence

I think it is this one....

Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: BAKER, Thirza
Registration district: Dudley
County: Staffordshire
Year of registration: 1875
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 6C
Page no: 168

MarriageFinder: Thirza Baker married one of the following people:

SHINTON, William

WALTERS, Richard

CAMM, Ann

But we have conflicting information on familysearch.


groom's name: William Shinton
groom's birth date:
groom's birthplace:
groom's age:
bride's name: Thirza Baker
bride's birth date:
bride's birthplace:
bride's age:
marriage date: 30 Aug 1875
marriage place: Sedgley, Stafford, England
groom's father's name: Edward Shinton
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Joseph Baker
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status:
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status:
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M16763-5
system origin: England-VR
source film number: 1040795
reference number: 2:3B3H339

groom's name: William Shinton
groom's birth date:
groom's birthplace:
groom's age:
bride's name: Thirza Baker
bride's birth date:
bride's birthplace:
bride's age:
marriage date: 30 Aug 1875
marriage place: Sedgley, Stafford, England
groom's father's name:
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name:
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status:
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status:
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M16763-5
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 1040795
reference number:
bride's birth date: 1843
bride's birthplace:
bride's age: 32
marriage date: 1875
marriage place: Longton, St. John, Stafford, England
groom's father's name: John Siddall
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Wm. Simpson
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status:
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status:
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M16724-2
system origin: England-VR
source film number: 1471087
reference number: 2:3KT8DC9

I think the familysearch transcribers mixed up two weddings. This is the entry for one with the Siddall connection.

County Staffordshire
Place Longton
Church St John
RegisterNumber 484
MarriageDate 03 May 1875
GroomForename Joseph
GroomSurname SENIOR
GroomAge 34
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Boiler Maker
GroomAbode Fenton
BrideForename Thirza
BrideSurname BAKER
BrideAge 32
BrideParish
BrideCondition Widow
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Fenton
GroomFatherForename John
GroomFatherSurname SIDDALL
GroomFatherOccupation Labourer
BrideFatherForename William
BrideFatherSurname SIMPSON
BrideFatherOccupation Fireman
WitnessOneForename Alfred
WitnessOneSurname SIMPSON
WitnessTwoForename Leveina
WitnessTwoSurname SIMPSON
Notes She signs X
FileNumber 7185

There is a death registered in 1853 for Thirza Baker, in Sedgley (WMBMD)

There is a marriage for Thirza Baker to William Shinton - 1875/216 - All Saints, Sedgley

and

Teresa Baker to Peter Woodall, St James, Lower Gornal, 1871/339

I'm going to the Archives today - I'll add them to my list

Maggie

MarkCDodd wrote:I think it is this one....

Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: BAKER, Thirza
Registration district: Dudley
County: Staffordshire
Year of registration: 1875
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 6C
Page no: 168

MarriageFinder: Thirza Baker married one of the following people:

SHINTON, William

WALTERS, Richard

CAMM, Ann

Hi Mark, thanks for helping me unpick the Thirza/Theresa mystery. Its certainly given me some avenues to investigate. Would be interesting to find the correct wedding certificate and then follow her married life through the censuses.

Antie Em wrote:There is a marriage for Thirza Baker to William Shinton - 1875/216 - All Saints, Sedgley

and

Teresa Baker to Peter Woodall, St James, Lower Gornal, 1871/339

I'm going to the Archives today - I'll add them to my list

Maggie

Hi Maggie,
Thanks for the extra info. Would be great to hear if anything crops up at the archives.
Darren

Hi Darren

Here are the marriages, looked up at Dudley Archives :

All Saints, Sedgley : 30 Aug 1875
William Shinton, 22, B, Furnaceman of Sedgley, Father Edward Shinton, Brick Master
Thirza Baker, 20, S, of Sedgley, Father Joseph Baker, Roller
Wit : Thomas Baker and Dinah Tonks

St James, Lower Gornal : 13 Aug 1871
Peter Woodall, 19, B, Miner, of Summer Lane, Father Peter Woodall, Furnace Man
Teresa Baker, 20, S, Nailer, of Lower Gornal, Father John Baker (Dec) Miner
Wit : Henry Middleton and Sarah Passmore

Maggie

So it is neither of those two then.

It is this one....

Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: BAKER, Theresa
Registration district: Aston
County: Warwickshire
Year of registration: 1871
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 6D
Page no: 546

MarriageFinder: Theresa Baker married one of the following people:

HODGKINS, Richard

WALKER, William

STEVENS, Susan


Here they are in the 1881 census.

1881 census transcription details for: Maxstoke Lane, Coleshill

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG11
Piece: 3052
Folio: 29
Page: 17
Reg. District: Meriden
Sub District: Coleshill
Parish: Coleshill
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Maxstoke Lane, Coleshill
County: Warwickshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
WALKER, William Head Married M 37 1844 Ag Labourer Nuneaton, Warwickshire
WALKER, Theresa Wife Married F 39 1842 Worcester, Worcestershire
LUCKETT, Lilian Anne Boarder Single F 1 1880 Coleshill, Warwickshire