Genealogy Forum UK

Hi

My name is Ben and I am new to the Genealogy Forum UK. I have been a keen researcher of my family tree for over 5 years now and now like to offer my experiences and help others in their research queries by asking the right questions and helping provide answers. Also in genealogy you have to go on what is the most likely if you dont always have any rock solid 100% proof but very strong evidence where you have proven things beyond at least reasonable doubt. Here is 1 case with finding the father of an illegitimate child:-

My great, great grandmother was born Mary Ann Walder, illegitimate daughter of Mary Ann Walder on the 31st December 1863 in Warninglid, Sussex. The fathers name and occupation was left blank.

In July 1864, Mary Ann Walder had moved swiftly to London with a servant called Thomas Roberts, who was 26 years her senior and born in Kent according to later censuses. They married on the 25th July 1864 at West Hackney Church, Stoke Newington, London. Thomas was a widower and a Servant.

On the 6th November 1864, the baby which had been born illegitimately was baptised as "Mary Ann Kate Roberts, Daughter of Thomas and Mary Ann Roberts" at West Hackney Church, 3 months after the wedding. The baptism itself was a good clue that Thomas was claiming the baby as his own.

But, to research further, I needed to perhaps locate Thomas in 1861 census to see if he was in Sussex or anywhere near to Mary Ann and to maybe find out when his previous wife died.

Thomas Roberts was found to be living a few miles down the road from Mary Ann Walder in the 1861 census in Brighton, aged 47 a Servant, born Kent, married to Esther and they had 1 daughter Ann aged 9. Mary Ann Walder was a single woman living with her family in Warninglid aged 21 in 1861. Warninglid and Brighton had good rail links and road links, even in the 1860s according to old maps.

I found a death for an Esther Roberts in the Dec Quarter of 1863 in Brighton district. I realised that if it was Thomas's wife Esther, then that means that she died just before Mary Ann Walder gave birth to her baby. I sent off for the death cert.

It arrived and it told me that Esther Roberts, Died 14th November 1863, 19 Viaduct Terrace Brighton, wife of Thomas Roberts, a Domesic Servant. The cause of death was eye catching. It said "Phthisis, years, certified". Mary Ann Walder was 7 months pregnant at the time of Thomas's wife death.

I then thought that if Thomas's wife had been ill for a long time before she died, that due to stress and being in need of comfort, Thomas began an affair with single woman Mary Ann Walder while Esther was dying, and Thomas still being married well into Mary Ann's pregnancy very strongly suggests why the baby was illegitimate. Esther died just 6 weeks before the birth of the baby. All the evidence that I have gathered very strongly suggests that Thomas was the babys father and that he was seeing Mary before Esther died, maybe Mary was a carer for her or something. The circumstances surrounding the reason for the illegitimacy is very plausible.

Ben

HI London Lover and welcome to the forum

Hi Ben, welcome to the forum!
Your offer of help and advice is very welcome too
I seem to remember only a few weeks ago, we had something similar to your story, can anyone remember who it was?

Mally

Hi

I think that with my Roberts story that I have my basises covered. Many people have congratulated me for my findings on the story. The length of his previous wife's illness, the babys baptism etc. The balance of probabilities is that the baby was Thomas's. Absolute proof is difficult such as old letters, DNA so you have to think and use logic and work on a conclusion based on hard evidence. I am certain he was the dad.

Ben

Hi Londonlover - as your name suggests, are you based in London UK?
The reason I ask this is because my ancestors on my dad's side hail from Stepney, Limehouse districts and I thought that perhaps if you were in the vicinity you may be able to help me out with some difficult and sensitive facts.

Is there a way we can find out where a certain person was living and working between censuses? ie: 1913?

Hi Ben, I think we all come across this scenario, unmarried Mother's. I have the same situation in my tree. The babies father's name was on the birth certificate, I then had to use my logical skills to work out which one he was, like you I found a Widower, of the right age, name and abode and it all fell into place. Wait until you get back to 1760, when there are no Census entries and no BMD's That's when it really gets difficult, best wishes from linell.

Aussie_Brit wrote:Is there a way we can find out where a certain person was living and working between censuses? ie: 1913?

Only by Trade Directories, or any old letters, deeds, local Church Records etc. If they are from the BC, often pictures and or names are published in the Bugle. I have one list of names, Chainmakers from the Rowley Regis area for that time period. Happy hunting from Linell.

Hi

I am not from London but a lot of my family was and I am a sort of "Adopted Londoner" due to my maternal grans mum being from there. Islington to be precise. I know a great deal on London and have many hsotory books including Soho Past, Islington Past, Camden Town Past, Memories of Holborn, plus many more.

Back to the Roberts thing, yes, unmarried Mary was 7 months pregnant when Thomas's wife died. Thomas then married Mary as soon as he could and he had to leave it a short while so that he could grieve and sort out a move away to London, plus a death on Marys side. The fact that Thomas was married has to explain the illegitimacy, because the fathers wife had just died after a long illness. I think I am safe to say that Thomas was the father. The baptism alone is about 80% proof then you have to throw in the rest such as the circumstances and timelines. I have a good enough reason why he isnt named on the birth cert, because he wasnt yet married to her and his wife had just died 6 weeks before after a long illness.

Also, the baby inherited Thomas's mums traits in dressmaking, so she has to be Thomas's. All census records list her as a daughter, her marriage cert, and an 1878 poor law document which lists all of Thomas's children and Kate being the eldest. She was known affectionately as Kate when her full name was Mary Ann Kate. Her sisters were also nown by middle names.

Linell when was your illegitimate ancestor born?

Ben

Hi Ben, Frances (don't like to put too much detail on here as her family line may be sensitive about it) was born Halesowen 1862. Her Mother my Gt Gt Grandmother was a Widow, and the Father who is on the BC was a Widower, but he didn't marry my Gt Gt Grandmother. She eventually Married someone else and moved away up north with Frances, where I presume no one was any the wiser, it wasn't until 2003 that I found all this out, Frances's descendants were shocked to say the least. But hey it's no big deal today is it! Best Wishes Linell.

Hi Linell

It is not often that a fathers name appears on a birth cert for an illegitimate child. Did they pretend they were married on the birth cert? How long after Frances was born did her mum marry another man? They probably moved away to escape intimidation from locals.

I think that is why my Roberts family moved away and married just after the birth of their baby, to avoid comments from locals in the mothers village and any future hounding when the child grew up, ie at school. I think what clinched it is the father was still married well into the mums pregnancy.

Ben

Hi Ben, I should imagine that my Gt Gt Grandmother after being deserted was damn sure she put his name on the BC, I would imagine that the father never knew he was on there! I think he moved away too, I found him on the next Census in West Bromwich. My Gt Gt Grandmother Married again 4 years later, no more children, think it was a Marriage of convienience, this husband was a middle aged bachelor when they Married. I am sure you are correct, moving away from all the scandal was the only way forward, best for all concerned. Best Wishes from Linell.

Hi Linell

Yes that was a way of naming and shaming them if the father denied paternity or ran away. The mother could reveal all to a registrar or vicar or poor law authoritarian.

I think in my case, ThomasRoberts was planning to marry Mary when he could so Mary didnt have to shame him as he probably admitted paternity, but they still had to move away after the birth, probably partly jobwise but they must have tried to avoid a scandal.

100% proof is very difficult to achieve in many genealogy cases so you have to work out the likeliest based on evidence and reasons and I think our stories are pretty conclusive.

Ben

Hi

Yes, I am really pleased that my Roberts case turned out good. As said because it happened 145 years ago, it can be difficult to get absolute cast iron proof of anything in genealogy but that baptism of the baby as his daughter is enough evidence to prove my case beyond all reasonable doubt.

Thomas obviously did the decent thing by marrying the mother and accepting responsibility. The fact that he was still married 7 months into the mothers pregnancy is a good enough reason why the baby was illegitimate, also that his wife was ill for a long time, making Thomas bereft enough to seek comfort in a single woman. Mary being single and pregnant is because she had to wait until the fathers wife had died before she could be with him. Thomas was a servant and footman and I think they met through service. What I have gathered is pretty conclusive. Many people who I have gone through this case with also have reached the same conclusion and I have been congratulated by some as well.

Ben

Aussie_Brit wrote:

LondonLover1982 wrote:Hi

I am not from London but a lot of my family was and I am a sort of "Adopted Londoner" due to my maternal grans mum being from there. Islington to be precise. I know a great deal on London and have many hsotory books including Soho Past, Islington Past, Camden Town Past, Memories of Holborn, plus many more.

Hi Ben. My grandmother's family all lived in the Limehouse area at the turn of the century (1900). The story I have been told is thus:
My great grandparents died young (he died in 1902, not sure when she died) but they left 4 children orphaned. My Nan was the second to youngest, she had 2 older brothers and a younger sister.
Ok, apparently one of the older brothers was married so he and his wife took his 2 young sisters in. My nan got a job working as a handstitcher, not sure what they called it but she would sew the linings into men's hats and jackets with those tiny little stitches, She was going out with the bosses son at the time and she would have been 20 years old. We never had a real name for this man but he went by the nickname of "Izzy" so I am assuming that perhaps his name was Israel or Isaac? Or even that this could have been a shortened version of his surname. I think what I am looking for is a Jewish tailor? They must have owned a business for my nan to be working for them.
Anyhow, Nan got pregnant. He wanted to marry her and take her to America but he didn't want the baby - the shame I guess - but she wouldn't give up the baby and she didn't want to leave England. The baby was born January 1914, so we are looking about April 1913?
Talk about brick wall!! And no, the father's name is not on the BC.

Aussie Brit going to split your post from here and move it to brickwalls you might get some help with it from there