Genealogy Forum UK

Hi there

I have recently started my family tree on my mothers side, and I have come up against a brick wall.

Charles Raymond NORTH was my grandad and he was married to Lily agnes Kirkup, I have come stuck with his parents.
My mam has the birth cert and the names on there are George NORTH and Lily HOLMES but I cannot find any information at all on either of them. No Marriage cert no death cert or even cencus info. I got a birth cert for Lily HOLMES born April 1884 but no other info on it, have not ordered a copy of the origional yet. Also a census in 1891 to say she lived in Warwickshire Birmingham aged 7.

My Grand father never spoke of his family but got asked shortly after my grans death by a family member and she was told his parents died at an early age so we assumed he was orphaned and that he seems to remember a having sister, which led me to believe he was orphaned at a very early age. But again no info on this either.

His birth cert says he was born in birmingham, and he married my gran in 1943 in her home town of seaton burn Northumberland.

Any help anyone can give on this matter would be much appreciated.

Thanks

paul

When was he born,is this him,
Births Jun 1918.
North Charles R. mothers maiden name Holmes. Aston. 6d. 727.

Possible brothers,
Births Mar 1917.
North Fred. Holmes. Birmingham. 6d. 465.

Births Sep 1919.
North Samuel J. Holmes. Aston. 6d. 766.

What was his fathers occupation on is birth cert.

What info is on your Grandads marriage cert for his father?
Jo

same thinking Jimmy

On Lily Holmes birth cert you have, it doesnt say parents names or fathers ocuupation?

His father was a haulier.
His father would have been dead at the time he got married, but I will ask my mother what it says.
I do not have Lily Holmes birth cert just what was found on site, just that it says her birth date, I am useing ancester site.

Paul

Jimmy wrote:When was he born,is this him,
Births Jun 1918.
North Charles R. mothers maiden name Holmes. Aston. 6d. 727.

Possible brothers,
Births Mar 1917.
North Fred. Holmes. Birmingham. 6d. 465.

Births Sep 1919.
North Samuel J. Holmes. Aston. 6d. 766.

poss marriage should be on 1911


Marriages Sep 1909
HILL Minnie Aston 6d 493
HOLMES Mary Annie Aston 6d 493
NEWBOLD Albert Victor Aston 6d 493
NORTH James Aston 6d 493

None of the above would match the names on the birth cert.

Couple of questions

Is it possible for Goerge north that is on the birth cert be useing his middle name, say really be called raymond george north???

Could be possible they where never married and my grandad was illigitamate.

How do I find records of my grandad in WW2, I know he and my gran met in the army and married shortly after in 1943 so on that record it would have places lived when he joined up etc would it not???

Thanks Paul

What are the details on the birth cert, date etc.

Details on birth cert are

Name Charles Raymond North
Born 17 may 1918
Father George north
Mother Lily Holmes
Address where born chappel st birmingham warickshire

Died setember 1984 in newcastle upon tyne
married Lily Agnes Kirkup 15 February 1943

That is all the information I have on my grandfather, which is quite alot but its his parents that are the mystery. And like said earlier maybe have been orphand at an early age.

Thanks
Paul

Like you, I can"™t find anything at all about George North, the father of Charles Raymond North.

You say that you"™ve found Lily Holmes on the 1891 census living in Birmingham aged 7. This looks like her family:-

1881: 18 Clifton Grove, Edgbaston, Birmingham
Henry Holmes "“ Head.M - 31 "“ Station Engine Driver - Manchester
Sarah Holmes "“ Wife - 26
Thomas H. Holmes "“ Son - 7 "“ Scholar
Joseph A. Holmes "“ Son - 4 "“ Scholar
Caroline S. Holmes "“ Dau 3
Elizabeth Holmes "“ Dau 9mths
Sarah Pass "“ Mother in law.Wid - 64 - Wednesbury
James Holmes "“ Brother & Boarder.UM - 20 "“ Carriage Lamp Glass Beveller
William Kempson "“ Boarder.UM - 21 Carriage Lamp Glass Beveller
All others born Birmingham

1891: Sun Street West, Edgbaston, Birmingham
Henry Holmes "“ Head.Mar "“ 43 "“ Stationery Engine Driver "“ Manchester
Sarah Holmes "“ Wife "“ 36
Thomas Holmes "“ Son.S "“ 17 "“ Cabinet Maker Apprentice
Joseph Holmes "“ Son. "“ 14 "“ Plumbers Assistant
Caroline Holmes "“ Dau "“ 13 "“ Scholar
Violet Holmes "“ Dau "“ 11 "“ Scholar
Emily Holmes "“ Dau "“ 9 "“ Scholar
Lily Holmes "“ Dau "“ 7 "“ Scholar
George Holmes "“ Son "“ 5 "“ Scholar
Frederick Holmes "“ Son "“ 3
Sarah Pass (East on index) "“ Mother in law.Wid "“ 75
All others born Birmingham

1901: 17 Sun Street West, Edgbaston, Birmingham
Sarah Holmes "“ Head.Married - 46
Carrie Holmes "“ Dau..S - 23 Tailoress
Lizzie Holmes "“ Dau.S - 20 "“ Paper Warehouse Girl
Emily Holmes "“ Dau - 18 "“ Ink Ruler (Paper)
Lilian Holmes "“ Dau "“ 16 "“ Paper Warehouse Girl
George Holmes "“ Son - 15 "“ Compositor Print
Fredk Holmes "“ Son - 13
Ethel Holmes "“ Dau - 10
Herbert Holmes "“ Son "“ 4
All born Birmingham

??1901: Collingwood Street, Colne, Lancs
John Chew "“ Head.M "“ 41 "“ Labourer Coal Trade "“ Southport, Lancs
Mary E Chew "“ Wife "“ 47 "“ Manchester
Mary E Chew "“ Dau "“ 10 "“ Padiham, Lancs
##Henry Holmes "“ Brother in law.Mar "“ 53 "“ Navvy "“ Manchester

1911: 126 Mary St, Balsall Heath, Birmingham
Sarah Holmes "“ Head.Wid "“ 56
Emily Holmes "“ Dau.S "“ 28 "“ Printer's Ruler
Lily Holmes "“ Dau.S - 26 - Printer's Sewer
George Holmes "“ Son.S "“ 25 - Printers Compositor
Ethel Holmes "“ Dau.S - 19 - Pinafore Machinist
Herbert L Holmes - Son -14 - Butcher"™s Office Boy
James Holmes "“ Brother in law.Wid "“ 49 - Glass Beveler
Albert Holmes "“ Nephew.S - 26 - Glass Beveler
Violet Homes "“ Niece.S "“ 16 - Pinafore Machinist
All born Birmingham

In the 1881 & 1891 Censuses there is a Sarah Pass, Mother in law, so looks as though Henry Holmes' wife Sarah, is Sarah Pass.
From freebmd:
Marriages Sep 1873
Fowler Samuel Birmingham 6d 234
Holmes Henry Birmingham 6d 234
PASS Sarah Birmingham 6d 234
Stanton Charlotte Birmingham 6d 234
WHEELER Mary Ann Birmingham 6d 234

From The Marriage Locator at http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk
This marriage was at Birmingham St Thomas.

Info on your gran Lily Agnes Kirkup from Ancestry:
Lily A Kirkup
Mother's Maiden Surname: Summerell
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1921
Registration district: Tynemouth
Inferred County: Cumberland
Volume Number: 10b

From freebmd:
Marriages Sep 1908
KIRKUP Robert John Tynemouth 10b 339
MILLS John Edward Tynemouth 10b 339
SUMMERELL Agnes Tynemouth 10b 339

1911: 2 Front Street, Seaton Burn, Dudley, Northumberland
Robert John Kirkup "“ Head.Mar "“ 29 "“ Colliery Cartman Above/Coal Mining "“ Stannington, New Kennels, Northumberland
Agnes Robinson Kirkup "“ Wife - 22 - George Street, New Errington, Durham
William Kirkup "“ Son "“ 2 "“ Arcot Cottage, Cramlington, Northumberland


Hope this helps.

Barb

Thanks for that, that will be a big help on my grans side.

It really is a mystery about george though, need to start to look at orphages but there where so many around birmingham in the 1900's.

Thanks again

paul

I don't think that you should assume this is the right Lily Holmes - there seem to have been a fair number of them in the Aston/Birmingham area and as you don't know her age when she gave birth or her father's name then I think you need to be careful.

Someone who has access to the 1911 census by address could perhaps check Chapel Street and see if there were any North/Holmes families there?

Thanks for the advice Gardener.

I will do a bit more digging before getting my hopes up.

Paul