*ARc tbc*-Edwin Toy b1860 Hill, Worc-Help with Death record.

[NickToye]

Hi Nick, why don't you just get your Grandparents Marriage Certificate and work backwards from that? That will tell what you need to know. Linell.

My grandparents won't tell me about Edwin, as I know who my grandparents parents are - Thomas and Emily (Darby). It's Thomas's parents who I need to understand. I know who they are, that is certain - I just need to know why they vanished and why my family had to move from Quinton to Chester.

[linell]

Hi Nick, did they move for work reasons? Have you got Thomas's birth certificate? Sounds interesting.......

Linell.

[linell]

Hi,

My Great Grandfather Thomas Toye b 1883 in Quinton, Worc (born as Thomas Toy), was the first member of my family to move into the Chester area, and he did so with his Brother David Toye b 1885 at the turn of the last century, and it seems he and David were put into a school for orphans/poor children/child criminals - I am not 100% sure either way.

His father my GG Grandfather Edwin Toy b 1860 Hill, Worc. vanished from the census in 1891, as did his wife Ellen b 1858 (I don't have a surname). I have no record of their death at all, or any reason why they have vanished from existence.

They also had a daughter called Eliza b 1888 who remained in Quinton, Worcestershire and stayed with her Grand Mother Eliza Toy b 1828 Quinton.

If anyone can help me here I will be massively grateful. It's a missing piece in my family history and I would love to know what happened.

Nick

Just read your first post again. Does sound as though there was some family trauma. I suppose Thomas's Parents died or went to Prison/Transported for some reason? That is why the children were all farmed out. I would try and find the local newspaper of the day and see if there is anything in there. I know it would be a big job searching a few years worth of Newspapers, but if it was me I would have to find out! Good luck, Linell.

[NickToye]

I will need to get hold of Thomas' birth certificate, but again not really sure what that will tell me, because I have evidence in the census to prove who Thomas' parents were.

Thomas and David both appeared in the 1901 census in a workhouse in Chester. Eliza the younger sister appears last for me in the 1901 census but living with her grandmother Eliza Toye (nee Parkes) Edwin's mother - and still in Quinton.

So the boys were moved to Chester and it seems Eliza was moved to her Grandmothers residence.

The 1911 census shows me Eliza Toy (nee Parkes) living with David Toye b 1870, who is her son, although the transcript says Grandmother - now she wouldn't be the Grandmother to David although there is 45 years between them. Anyway, thats another story.

This 1911 census doesn't show Eliza Toy the younger living with her grandmother, but she would be 23 now, but I couldn't find any evidence of her on the 1911 census.

[NickToye]

Oh I have to find out - that is for sure, but its the time I just don't have at the moment.

[Annie]

1911 For David imag says grandmother for Eliza.

Annie

[NickToye]

1911 For David imag says grandmother for Eliza.

Annie

yes I know, I have that information.

I always thought David was Eliza's son, but it's not. However, this is not really central to my investigation - I don't think anyway.

[NickToye]

Ok, Have decided to create a spreadsheet of the Edwin Toy's born in an around 1860 in the Worcestershire area.

Here are my findings.

1. Edwin Toy b March 1855 in Wolverhampton.
Father was Samuel Toy
Mother was Jane Toy
Edwin appears on all census including 1911.

He is known as a Railway Clerk, so I'm guessing this isn't the same Edwin - but worth knowing anyway as he could be a more distant relative. Discovered a death certificate for 1933 and he was 77 when died, so this fits here.

2. Edwin Toy b June 1860 in Hill, Worcestershire.
Now this is the Edwin I believe to be my ancestor.
His children point to my relatives, and he appears on all census from 1861 to 1891, and he also appears on a school register for his kids in 1893. But not in 1901 and certainly not in 1911, not in this form anyway.

Strangely there was another Edwin Toy b 1861, registered in the 4th quarter of 1861 in Wolverhampton, Staffs - but he appears on no census at all. However, just found a death certificate for 1863, so that must be why that person is not on any census.

3. Edwin Toy b Dec 1864 in Aston
But again no evidence of any existence on any of the census. But I have just found a death certificate for the same period, so an infant death here.

4. Edwin Toy b 1862 in Staffs
I don't have a birth certificate for this person, nor do I have census records up till 1901, which as coincidence would have it is when I lost the census trail for Edwin Toy b 1860, who is my ancestor. Could these two people be one and the same?
They both have the same occupation as a bricklayer.

Although as we know this Edwin was married to Georgina b 1872, and in the 1911 census the same Edwin was married to Florence b 1872, same wife? different name? quite possible.
In the 1901 census there is no children listed, in the 1911 census there are 3 children - Amy (12), Edwin (4), Marian (1). Why isn't Amy on the 1901 census? babe in arms? was she actually 12?

I have a very strong suspicion that my Edwin remarried post 1893 - there are just too many coincidences for me.

Now I started to look through the death certificate records, hence my italic edits in this post.

The only Edwin Toy that I have that is suitable to my investigations died in 1937 age 75 which gives him a dob of 1862 - which is our 4th Edwin Toy who I suspect re-married. My only issue I have and probably the only element that is stopping me from fully believing that this Edwin is my Edwin, is because his DOB is 1862, and the Edwin I know is my ancestor was born in 1860. I know this because he appears on the 1861 census as being 11 months old. Now Edwin no.4 could have lied about his age later in life - vanity or some other reason I don't know.

What are the thoughts? Am I wrong here? Is Edwin no.4 my Edwin remarried?

[NickToye]

Did Edwin remarry? How many Edwin Toye's were ther who were also Bricklayers??

1901 20, 2, House Court, Smith Street, Birmingham
TOYE, Edwin Head Married M 39 1862 Bricklayer Netherton Staffordshire
TOYE, Georgina Wife Married F 29 1872 Scotland

1911?? 6 Bk 23 Denmark St Aston Manor
TOYE, Edwin Head Married 13 years M 49 1862 Bricklayer Birmingham
TOYE, Florence A Wife Married 13 years F 39 1872 Birmingham
TOYE, Fanny Daughter F 12 1899 School Birmingham
TOYE, Edwin Son M 4 1907 Birmingham
TOYE, Marian G Daughter F 1 1910 Birmingham

Does the 13 years mean they have been married for 13 years?

[NickToye]

that being the case they would have married 1898?

Well I have found a match with Edwin Toye marrying a Florence Mabel Roberts in Dec 1899, however it is in Redruth, which I believe is Cornwall. Possible holiday romance?

[NickToye]

Ok, I now turned my attentions to Ellen Walford b 1858, or so I thought. On a hint from a previous poster I found a death record of an Ellen Toye 1921, age 68 which would give DOB as 1853. Which is of course 5 years out. However, I did a quick search for an Ellen Walford b 1858 and I found nothing. So safe to say she also lied about her age - perhaps to woo a younger man? who knows. Anyway, I then researched an Ellen Walford b 1853 and of course I found one.

So that's also fairly safe to assume Ellen Walford was born in 1853 not 1858, and I also now have a death record for this person. Which now strengthens the argument that her and Edwin did split up, rather than both perishing in some accident.

Did Edwin have an affair?

[NickToye]

Oh bloody hell, now I have discovered an Ellen Walford on 2 census from 1861 and 1871 with different parents.

[Northern Lass]

Actually, do you not think it should remain in this thread as its kind of linked to what happened with Edwin?

Could rename the post?

Ok I will delete my bits

but this thread is really long now and personally I think it needs sorting a bit and splitting
but your thread so your choice

I am going to move it to BC section though cos think it covers that area

so min while I do that

[NickToye]

Ok, how about tonight when I am doing with my work tasks I create a new thread for Edwin Toy and Ellen Walford, the Mystery.

Then I will summarise what I know, and hopefully it won't be a long thread again.

[Northern Lass]

Ok, how about tonight when I am doing with my work tasks I create a new thread for Edwin Toy and Ellen Walford, the Mystery.

Then I will summarise what I know, and hopefully it won't be a long thread again.

Ok we can then archive the old topic and it will be easier for folk to read and help you with