Genealogy Forum UK

Hi,

I'm not convinced that the BL Matilda's baptismal/death record would give much if any information about her parents but it may give you a place of burial, however it's always a risk parting with any money. I know from my own experience when I paid money for my relatives death certifictate only for it to state died on active service overseas (which I knew already) .

It was only a wild guess about William receiving or buying some land on discharge but It may fit in with the marriage entry and I would try to find out more details on that entry even if it's to eliminate them from your search.

I'm sure William would have served with the Bengal Regiment of Artillery 1st Battalion all during his service in India because on all the documentation only one Regimental Number is given and the Artillery was a specilised role so it would have been strange for the Army to transfer him.

The 1st Battalion of the Bengal Regiment of Artillery were garrisoned at Lucknow during the Indian Mutiny when it was besieged for 90 days against a massive Sepoy force, it latter took part in the siege of Delhi.

http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/co ... ge180.html

The above website gives some information and you can see the Indian Mutiny Medal, with bars for Delhi, Relief of Lucknow, Lucknow & Central India, awarded to Cpl. Patrick Keays, 1858. Patrick Keays was serving with the 1st Battalion of the Bengal Regiment of Artillery and the medal you see would have been identical to the one William would have received.

William's family would have most likely been present at Lucknow during the siege and had to endure all the dangers and hardships suffered, knowing that if the enemy had taken the city certain death awaited them because the siege of Cawnpore earlier had ended in the massacre of most of the women and children.

Let's hope you get a response from FIBIS (Fingers crossed).

Kind regards
Adrian

Ok everyone I'm back......after traveling to the UK and back to Canada I needed a break. So now am back at and have some new info on finding William:

In 1861 he was pensioned under pension list # 603
Reason: Time expired
Residence: Cheltenham
Pension commenced on: 1st Sept 1861
Remarks: White Eagle 20th August 1861 or 62

So I assume that White Eagle is the ship he sailed on returning to England? If anyone knows anything on the White Eagle, if in fact this is a ship. Any links that you can recommend on the sailing dates and manifests would be great.
Thanks PP

Hi,

Welcome back and I'm glad you're back on the trail.

I've moved this topic from Archive to Researching Individuals forum and let's hope we can help.

Regards
Adrian

Hi,

I'm wondering if this ship 'White Eagle' is the one you mentioned and if you check the link below you can maybe follow up on the sources given.

Google Captain William Storey Croudace and that will give you the link to the information on 'White Eagle'

It's only a guess but maybe worth a quick look.

Regards
Adrian

You forgot to add the link but think I found it...LOL
Thank you

I've been reviewing William's discharge papers trying to determine his injury from the mutiny and I think I might have figured out part of the document through google..just not sure if it's right because it doesn't make much sense.

Gwalior Campaign 1843/44
Punjab Campaign 1848/49 against the "Bhorels" in 1853 with Brig 2 forces.( the 2 is above two lines like this =)
Force during the mutiny in 1857/58

What is Bhorels and the Brig force? I'm 90% sure that I've got the correct words but not much on google.

Hopefull next week I can find the ship mannifest on the films I ordered.

brig 2 forces, might be a brigade made up of two battalions or regiments

Hi,

This is really good stuff and the more information you've find just highlights what a dangerous and interesting life William must have led.

We know from your information (did you get this from any confirmed documents ?)that William saw action during the following campaigns in India and so would have been awarded the following medals:

Gwalior Campaign Stars 1843
Description:
Six-pointed star of bronze but with a silver centre bearing the name of the battle (MAHARAJPOOR or PUNNIAR) for which it is awarded and the date '29th DEC 1843'. The reverse is plain except for a pin used to attach the star to clothing. However many were later converted to take a ribbon (attached via a metal ring or one of a variety of privately fitted suspenders) in order for the star to be worn in the same manner as other medals.
Comments:
This star is made from the bronze of guns captured during the two battles of Maharajpoor and Punniar of the Gwalior campaign. Presented by the Indian government to all ranks the original issues were made with hooks on the reverse to wear the star on the breast but rings or suspenders were later fitted by recipients to allow wear in keeping with other medals.

Punjab Campaign 1848-49
Description:
The obverse of the medal bears the head of young Queen Victoria and the legend 'VICTORIA REGINA'. The reverse depicts Sir Walter Gilbert receiving the Sikh surrender with the inscription 'TO THE ARMY OF THE PUNJAB' above and the date MDCCCXLIX in the exergue below. The suspender is of the common swivelling ornate scroll type.
Comments:
A large number of these medals were awarded to Indian troops but many of them were later melted down for their silver content. As a result more examples are found for sale named to European recipients than native troops.

Indian Mutiny 1857-59
Description:
Queen Victoria with the inscription "Victoria Regina". The reverse shows Britannia with a wreath in her outstretched right hand whilst defending herself with a Union Flag covered shield on her left hand. to the right of Britannia you will see a Lion underneath the word India. At the base of the reverse you will see the dates 1857 - 1859.
Comments:
There are four different clasps that were awarded with Indian Mutiny Medal: 'DELHI' (30th May - 14th Sept 1857), 'DEFENCE OF LUCKNOW' (29th Jun - 22nd Nov 1857), 'RELIEF OF LUCKNOW' (Nov 1857), 'LUCKNOW' (Nov 1857 - Mar 1858) and 'CENTRAL INDIA' (Jan - Jun 1858).

This link gives information and photo's of all the medals awarded by the British Army so I'm afraid you'll have to search the database to find the Indian Campaign medals.
http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk (I remembered the link this time )

These would have been the general medals awarded but depending on what engagements William was involved in during the campaign he may have been awarded clasps that were added to the medals eg. if fought at the defence of Lucknow then the clasp 'DEFENCE OF LUCKNOW' (29th Jun - 22nd Nov 1857)
would have been attached to his general Indian Mutiny 1857-59 medal. We need to find out the whereabouts of his Regiment during these campaigns to confirm what engagements he was involved.

I found this listed on the National Archive website which may have information on Williams service history but you'll need to either visit Kew or get someone to check the records. This can be expensive if you use a professional researcher and you're not sure what information will be found if any . We know it covers the general surname Brad and the dates, pension awarded and Regiment details seem to fit.

National Archive
WO Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Division within WO Records of the Royal Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals
WO 97 Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents
Subseries within WO 97 1855-1872: discharge papers arranged by regiment and range of surname. (WO 97/1272-1721)
Subsubseries within WO 97 Royal Artillery
Scope and content Royal Artillery: Brad - Bru
Covering dates 1855-1872
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years, This series is currently undergoing digitisation (from May 2008). Access to certain pieces will be disrupted over the next 3 years and advance ordering of this series may be interrupted during this time. Please check with us that the pieces that you wish to consult are not affected before you travel. For more details please visit the project news at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/212.htm.
Held by The National Archives, Kew.

I think we know need to concentrate on William's Regiment to attempt to pinpoint the whereabouts and movements of his regiment which may not been that easy.

I think "Bhorels" were the Sikh tribe that led the revolt againts the British but I need to confirm this yet.

I think the Gwalior Campaign 1843 was small one and only comprised of 2 Brigades so we can assume William fought at the battle of MAHARAJPOOR or PUNNIAR.

Ok we're getting somewhere because I've found mention of the death of Lieutenant Henry Stanger Leathes of the Bengal Artillery at the Battle of MAHARAJPOOR and we know William was serving with the Bengal Artillery.
Lieutenant Henry Stanger Leathes - Bengal Artillery.
Memorial at St. Mary Abbotts, Kensington - "In memoriam, Henry Stanger-Leathes, Lieut. HM Regt Artillery slain in Battle of Maharjpore at the taking of the fortress of Gwalior 29th Decr 1843 aged 24. Buried on the battlefield. Son of Thos Leathes Stanger-Leathes of Dale Head Hall, Thirlmere, Cumberland."

I'll check further and get back to you with I hope more information.

Chin up we're moving in the right direction I think

Regards
Adrian

here a links to campain medals

http://www.acepilots.com/medals/brit-victorian1.html


http://britisharmymedals.blogspot.com/2 ... medal.html

Thanks for your research and links.....I really appreciate all of the help and insight from everyone.
Apowel, the information I listed on Williams activities are recorded on the side of Williams discharge papers, it's just taking me this long to make out the chicken scratches. I sent these documents to Peter and they are now on the FIBS website avail for members to view.

I have also been reviewing films ordered from the LDS files, this is where I found Williams pension records with "White Eagle" listed under remarks. I have 2 more files to review and believe one of them has the ship's manifest and possibly his death.
As for Williams service history I wonder if there are LDS files that would cover medals/injuries and demotions?

The word "Bhorels" is my best guess at the writings, most of the Indian names and places are unfamiliar to me and I found this one through a google search but it made reference to walking the "Bhorels"

My husband also looked at the translations I made and wonders if the term "Brig" means jail, like the navy term used for sent to the brig and the 2= means the time William served? He was demoted in rank from Sgt. to gunner and am not sure if demotion was common practice for soldiers who were injured and sent to the Invalid battalion.
Slowly things are coming together, I will keep my chin up but with teeth clenched! LOL

Spent the day reviewing the LDS files for Williams death, Nothing!
So here's the question:

Found William's pension documents, his pension is to commence on Aug 22, 1861, he gets on the White Eagle sailing I assume for England Aug 20, 1861. No records are found under pensionable soldier's deaths from 1861 until 1888......I checked 3 separate times.

His wife Sophia is listed in 1871 census as widow but later that same year on the ship manifest she is listed as married. I assume that William died between 1861 and 1871, that Sophia listed herself as married to avoid male confrontation makes sense.

Question: If William died on the ship returning to England in 1861 would his death still be listed under pensioner's death?
Where can I find manifests on the White Eagle? How can I find out if William made it back to England?

Plan to check the LDS files on death in England next week.

Any thoughts?

A William Brad died at sea in 1860.

The entry is in "General Register Office's Marine Registers" index Page 9.

If you order the certificate from GRO, it is Volume Page 130.

That is the only information they supply in the index. Only by getting the certificate can you find out the ship.

FIBIS was mentioned earlier. Did you check them out?.

http://www.fibis.org/

They have

Baptismal Certificate of George Brad, Son of William
Discharge Certificate of Gunner William Brad
Final Description of William Brad
Service Record of William Brad
Service Statement of William Brad

Thanks Mark,

I provided those documents mentioned to fibis for the website and plan to send the pension documents as well.

Is it possible that the GRO has the wrong dates (1860) William signed his release docs in 61 so would have been alive in 60.

Would the certifiacte from GRO contain other information like spouse, parents etc?

Thanks again to everyone.

Depends on who filled out the death certificate on what information you get.

I have seen some highly detailed ones where family were onboard when the person died and some fairly basic "Died on...name..cause" ones for lone passengers.

I am not sure as to how they date the year the death is stored under. I would say it is too much of a coincidence for it not to be him.

I ordered the death certificate from GRO and was just informed that it is not valid? This was the reply:

Death certificate : William Brad - GRO index reference supplied = Marine Death 1860, Vol 130, page 09
The reference supplied is not a valid GRO reference, therefore we are unable to accept your application. The Marine deaths do not have a volume just a page number. We have therefore checked pages 130 and page 09 and there is no entry relating to the above death.

I requested the “Marine Register” could this be different than the “Marine Death” file they looked in?

Can I order the film through the LDS and does anyone know what film I need or how I can access the deaths at sea 1861 returning from India?

Just when I thought I had him! Grrrrrrr

prairie_princess wrote:I ordered the death certificate from GRO and was just informed that it is not valid? This was the reply:

Death certificate : William Brad - GRO index reference supplied = Marine Death 1860, Vol 130, page 09
The reference supplied is not a valid GRO reference, therefore we are unable to accept your application. The Marine deaths do not have a volume just a page number. We have therefore checked pages 130 and page 09 and there is no entry relating to the above death.

I requested the “Marine Register” could this be different than the “Marine Death” file they looked in?

Can I order the film through the LDS and does anyone know what film I need or how I can access the deaths at sea 1861 returning from India?

Just when I thought I had him! Grrrrrrr

best person i can think of is marie she not been for a while well ive not seen her, pm her as she works in one of the lds places in the states, unless someone elses can answer your query ?