Richard III

[dudleytaylor]

Actually DT,to be serious for a second, like most "Kings and Queens " their elegibilty is quite often in doubt.Check Richard's genealogy and ask yourself what happened to the Princes' in The Tower?

Very good question . I studied the Tudors mainly at school, but I do remember that we talked about the princes,and did he murder them. As far as I remember they were suppose to have been born out of wedlock and therefore had no right to the throne. I have no dought they were murdered either by his henchmen or he did it, which i very much dought. There would have been many who would do the job for him. They where all a murder-as lot. Henry VII married King Edwards sister so he could finely join Lancaster to York, and no one could argue the point .Its all very political ,and very interesting . The best book I ever read was by Lady Antonia Fraser .

[Margarett]

Mike, you have my sympathy! I'm suffering with sciatica too at the moment!

[Margarett]

DT, have you read the White Queen, and the Red Queen, both by Phillippa Gregory? They give good accounts of The princes in the Tower. it's not a foregone conclusion that Richard had them murdered.

[dudleytaylor]

Yes, they were Catholic places then, Snoopysue, but my point is that they aren't now. I wonder how a catholic would feel if they were told they had to be laid to rest in a protestant cathedral?

Its not about being a catholic or Prodestant. Its about being a King and his rightful place to be buried . and about the princes ,i have not read the book you refer too ,but I would be interested . I have no dought there are alot of theories. Perhaps someone will find out for sure oneday

[Margarett]

As I said before, i'm not religious, but actually, religion does come in to it. I agree he should be buried as a King, but I wouldn't like to dictate where that should be. I think it's a very sensitive issue.

[dudleytaylor]

DT, have you read the White Queen, and the Red Queen, both by Phillippa Gregory? They give good accounts of The princes in the Tower. it's not a foregone conclusion that Richard had them murdered.

I have just looked on the internet ,and i see they are novels .So they are her interpretation . She also wrote "The Other Boleyn Girl". I watched the film. as regards Richards Burial, It is a delicate matter but as I said before York minster as asked for him to be buried with his son. Its up to the Queen now and not us.

[Margarett]

They are novels, DT, but written by a serious historian. You are right, it is up to the Queen where he is buried. But I'm sure it will provoke a lot of discussion, as it has on here. There is nothing wrong with that, As you said, we are all entitled to our opinions.

[mallosa]

Well thanks for your opinions of me (Mallosa).....it boils down to one question why was he buried (if at all )in Greyfriars.?????.
at the moment I have got Sciatica.....I don't know which is worst...Mallosa's post or sciatica !!!
Mike.

Mike, my hubbies also got Sciatica and he probably thinks I'm worse

[peterd]

Yes, they were Catholic places then, Snoopysue, but my point is that they aren't now. I wonder how a catholic would feel if they were told they had to be laid to rest in a protestant cathedral?

Its not about being a catholic or Prodestant. Its about being a King and his rightful place to be buried . and about the princes ,i have not read the book you refer too ,but I would be interested . I have no dought there are alot of theories. Perhaps someone will find out for sure oneday

Well acually religion will play a part in this as at the moment no catholic is alowed to sit on the throne of england and niether is a first born female if a male is born, the later is about to change but will they change the religious aspect of it as the queen is the head of the church, so if a catholic now cannot sit on the throne why should a catholic king be buried in a now prodestant cathedral ? its a bit hipercritical ?

[dudleytaylor]

We will have to wait and see . http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/0 ... neral-york

[SRD]

Although fiction another good book on the subject of whether Richard killed the Princes is Josephine Tey's The Daughter of Time. But there are other factual books around, indeed the rumours of Richard's innocence/Henry's guilt started surfacing soon after Henry VII died, who incidentally, was a Tudor (I did that era at school as well) so technically Welsh, but he's buried in Westminster, which at the time, was Middlesex. Wiki has a list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_British_royalty which suggests that a majority of English Kings are buried in the Royal palaces close to London.
Personally I'd let him stay in Leicester close to where he met his end as a beaten king.

As far as the RC/CofE thing is concerned; I was chatting with an RC friend about the position of the established church in British society (you know, as one does ). We both support our local CofE church's fundraising activities, especially those for the structure of the church buildings in the village, and I said that, despite being an avowed atheist, I would be sad to see the Church dis-established as I consider it to be part of the structure of British Society. She gently reminded me "Don't forget, it used to be ours." Which is, of course, the case for all of the pre Henry VIII churches in the land. That's an awful lot of Roman Catholics buried in what are now CofE grounds. I would also remind you all about the Nicene Creed, accepted by the Anglican Church as one of the main tenets of belief, which has words along the lines of "And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church."

[Antie Em]

PHEWWWWW .................... Glad I didn't get involved in that one !!!!!

Have to say though, because I'm not so interested in more recent history, more interested in the dark ages, I have learned a lot about our royal family from Philippa Gregory.

[dudleytaylor]

Although fiction another good book on the subject of whether Richard killed the Princes is Josephine Tey's The Daughter of Time. But there are other factual books around, indeed the rumours of Richard's innocence/Henry's guilt started surfacing soon after Henry VII died, who incidentally, was a Tudor (I did that era at school as well) so technically Welsh, but he's buried in Westminster, which at the time, was Middlesex. Wiki has a list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_British_royalty which suggests that a majority of English Kings are buried in the Royal palaces close to London.
Personally I'd let him stay in Leicester close to where he met his end as a beaten king.

As far as the RC/CofE thing is concerned; I was chatting with an RC friend about the position of the established church in British society (you know, as one does ). We both support our local CofE church's fundraising activities, especially those for the structure of the church buildings in the village, and I said that, despite being an avowed atheist, I would be sad to see the Church dis-established as I consider it to be part of the structure of British Society. She gently reminded me "Don't forget, it used to be ours." Which is, of course, the case for all of the pre Henry VIII churches in the land. That's an awful lot of Roman Catholics buried in what are now CofE grounds. I would also remind you all about the Nicene Creed, accepted by the Anglican Church as one of the main tenets of belief, which has words along the lines of "And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church."

I also did the Tudors at school .Later I took a great interest in their life and times. Reading as much as I could about them , ( not Novels) .I have nothing against novels but I wanted to learn from Historians . Henry VIII was my favourite of the Tudors.

[Northern Lass]

It was a very good programme watched it last night she got on my nerves a bit
how lucky was it they put the trench where they did! and found it more or less straightaway!
I wondered if it was a wind up at first especially when Richards skeleton had a curved spine like the stories said!
No withered arm
did anyone else think the descendant looked like him!

I think that the skeleton should be put on display at the british Museum
Tutenkamen was!

Wot about on the carpark that letter R spooky!

[Margarett]

SRD., I too read Josephine Tey's" Daughter of Time", many years ago. An excellent , well-researched book, even if it if written as fiction. Nothing wrong with reading around a subject, is there?
Doesn't "catholic" in the Nicene Creed mean world-wide, rather than "Catholic" as in of the Catholic Church? My goodness this discussion is getting deep! If my Dad was still alive he would soon clear that one up!!!