Genealogy Forum UK

Jimmy wrote:

Sandykt wrote:The Birth Certificate I have for my Grandfather states his Mother as being "Mary Ann Townsend formerly Sida".

The 1881Census for both Charles Townsend and Mary Ann Sida show them as living a few doors along so I'm assuming they were childhood sweethearts.

That would be right, there should be no mention on the birth cert of a former husband if she had one.

I have a birth cert from 1869 that states Mothers married name, then LATE - her pevious married name (she was widowed), then FORMERLEY her maiden name, Is this not usual practice?

It was the only clue I had that enabled me to find her in earlier censuses

For some reason this was omitted from the page.

I have found Mary Ann Sida in the 1881 Census (aged 14) b.1867 and living a few doors along from Charles Townsend b.1863. Therefore Sida is her maiden name. Are you saying she married Pipe, he died and THEN she married Charles Townsend?

Sandykt wrote:I have found Mary Ann Sida in the 1881 Census (aged 14) b.1867 and living a few doors along from Charles Townsend b.1863. Therefore Sida is her maiden name. Are you saying she married Pipe, he died and THEN she married Charles Townsend?

yes thats what were saying

thats why you cannot find a sida / townsend marriage

Just thought I would update everyone. Thank you all for helping. I ordered the three certificates, Mary Ann Sida marrying John Charles Pipe, the death of John Charles Pipe and then the marriage of Charles Townsend to Marry Ann Pipe.
This is what I have found:

Mary Ann Sida (aged 22) spinster, married John Charles Pipe (widower) aged 27 on 25 Dec 1883. Mary's Father is stated to be Henry Sida.

John Charles Pipe died from smallpox on 6 Dec 1884.

Mary Ann Pipe, widow, married Charles Townsend aged 23 on 16 May 1886. Charles Townsend is stated to be Thomas (which I know is correct). Again, Mary Ann's Father is stated to be Henry Sida. However, I believe Henry was actually her brother and not her Father. What reason would her brother have been stated as her Father on the two certificates?

Also on BOTH marriage certificates, Mary Ann has stated her age 22. It is possible she may have got confused with the marriage in 1886 and stated her age when she married before?

Anyone's thoughts would be welcomed.

was mary ann born our of wedlock thats why brothers name used ?

Sandykt wrote:Mary Ann Pipe, widow, married Charles Townsend aged 23 on 16 May 1886. Charles Townsend is stated to be Thomas (which I know is correct). Again, Mary Ann's Father is stated to be Henry Sida. However, I believe Henry was actually her brother and not her Father. What reason would her brother have been stated as her Father on the two certificates?

Also on BOTH marriage certificates, Mary Ann has stated her age 22. It is possible she may have got confused with the marriage in 1886 and stated her age when she married before?

Given that Charles was only 23 when she married him did she want to appear younger than him -- in that time there was a feeling in some families that the man should be older than his wife (more experienced) --

Had she simply lied about her age? -- women still do it today

Sandykt wrote:.
Again, Mary Ann's Father is stated to be Henry Sida. However, I believe Henry was actually her brother and not her Father. What reason would her brother have been stated as her Father on the two certificates?

Could her father's name have been officially Henry but he was known by another name all his life because his father's name was Henry and it saved confusion the generation before?

ie Mary Ann's
Grandfather -- named Henry -called Henry
Father -- named Henry - called ??
Borther -- named Henry - called Henry

I have found Mary Ann Sida in the 1881 Census and her father is stated as Charles. Her father is stated to be 55 years and Mary Ann 14 years. Henry, her brother, is 7 years older.

I have searched back through the Census and as Sida is not a very common name, I cannot find any Henry Sida with a daughter of Mary Ann.

1871 Eagle Street, West Ham
SIDA, Charles Head M 47 1824 Essex Potato Dealer?
SIDA, Ann Wife F 40 1831 Essex
SIDA, Alice Daughter F 13 1858 Essex
SIDA, Henry Son M 10 1861 Essex
SIDA, Ann Daughter F 8 1863 Essex
SIDA, Elza Daughter F 6 1865 Essex
SIDA, Mary A Daughter F 3 1868 Essex
SIDA, John Son M 1 1870 Essex

Maths girl wrote:1871 Eagle Street, West Ham
SIDA, Charles Head M 47 1824 Essex Potato Dealer?
SIDA, Ann Wife F 40 1831 Essex
SIDA, Alice Daughter F 13 1858 Essex
SIDA, Henry Son M 10 1861 Essex
SIDA, Ann Daughter F 8 1863 Essex
SIDA, Elza Daughter F 6 1865 Essex
SIDA, Mary A Daughter F 3 1868 Essex
SIDA, John Son M 1 1870 Essex

Possible marriage

Year of Registration: 1855
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep

Ann Clark 1855 Rochford Essex
Lydia Mott 1855 Rochford Essex
George Pilbro 1855 Rochford Essex
George Pilcher 1855 Rochford Essex
Charles Sida 1855 Rochford Essex

You may have to send for the birth cert of Mary Ann Sida to be sure.. There are two possibles.

Births Dec 1863
SIDA Mary Ann W. Ham 4a 26

Births Jun 1865
SIDA Mary Ann W Ham 4a 52

You could specify that you only want the cert if father is Charles or Henry

In 1841 there appear to be two possible Henry Sida's --- Is Henry 1 the one you are looking for with MAry ann daughter in 1854 or Henry 2 with daughter Mary Ann 1865

Henry 1
1841 Curtis's Row, Barking, Ripple
SIDA, Isaac M 48 1793 Essex Ag Lab
SIDA, Mary F 36 1805 Essex
SIDA, Edward M 19 1822 Essex
SIDA, Charles M 16 1825 Essex
SIDA, Henry M 13 1828 Essex
SIDA, Mary F 10 1831 Essex

1851 Ship & Shovel, Barking, Ripple Ward
BIXBY, Edward Head Married M 37 1814 Labourer Romford Essex
BIXBY, Maria Wife Married F 28 1823 Labourers Wife Dagenham Essex
BIXBY, Sarah Ann Daughter Unmarried F 5 1846 Scholar Barking Essex
BIXBY, James Son M 3 1848 Dagenham Essex
BIXBY, William Son M 0 (7 MOS) 1851 Barking Essex
TURNER, Caroline Cousin Unmarried F 13 1838 House Servant Ilford Essex
SIDA, Charles Lodger Unmarried M 24 1827 Labourer Dagenham Essex
SIDA, Henry Lodger Unmarried M 22 1829 Labourer Grays Essex

1861 North Street, Barking
FIDA, Henry Head Married M 38 1823 Labourer In... Grays Essex
FIDA, Ann Wife Married F 30 1831 Barking Essex
FIDA, Mary Ann Daughter F 7 1854 Scholar Grays Essex
FIDA, Walter Son M 3 1858 Grays Essex
FIDA, James Daughter F 0 (5M) 1861 Grays Essex
FIDA, Mary Ann ... Widow F 52 1809 Laundress South Weald Essex

1871 North Street Ross Row, Barking
SIDD, Henry Head M 42 1829 Essex Labourer born Grays
SIDD, Ann Wife F 41 1830 Essex
SIDD, Mary Ann Daughter F 19 1852 Essex Domestic Servant
SIDD, Walter Son M 12 1859 Essex FActory Hand
SIDD, Jane Daughter F 10 1861 Essex Factory Hand
SIDD, Emily Daughter F 7 1864 Essex Scholar
SIDD, Charles Son M 5 1866 Essex Scholar
SIDD, Tibner Daughter F 3 1868 Essex
Rest born Barking

This Henry dies 1874
Henry Sida
Estimated birth year: abt 1828
Year of Registration: 1874
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 46
District: Romford
County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 101


Henry 2
1841 Ripple Side, Dagenham
LIDA, Charles M 30 1811 Essex Ag Lab
LIDA, Ann F 30 1811 Essex
LIDA, Isaac M 7 1834 Essex
LIDA, Emma F 5 1836 Essex
LIDA, Edward M 3 1838 Essex
LIDA, Henry M 1 1840 Essex
LIDA, Mary F 8 1833 Essex

1851 Keys Street, Dagenham
SIDA, Charles Head Married M 43 1808 Agricultural Labourer Cranham Essex
SIDA, Ann Wife Married F 47 1804 Stifford Essex
SIDA, Edward Son M 13 1838 Agricultural Labourer Dagenham Essex
SIDA, Henry Son M 11 1840 Scholar Dagenham Essex
SIDA, Eliza Daughter F 9 1842 Scholar Dagenham Essex
SIDA, Frederick Son M 3 1848 Dagenham Essex

1861 28, Rathbone Street, Westham
HILLIARD, Jacob Head Married M 56 1805 Dock Labourer ... Essex
HILLIARD, Rachael Wife Married F 60 1801 Dagenham Essex
HILLIARD, Rachael Daughter Unmarried F 21 1840 Dagenham Essex
HILLIARD, William Son M 16 1845 Dock Labourer Dagenham Essex
PERKINS, James Boarder Unmarried M 20 1841 Dock Labourer Romford Essex
SIDA, Henry Boarder Unmarried M 22 1839 Dock Labourer Rainham Essex
YOUNG, Thomas Boarder Unmarried M 21 1840 Dock Labourer Rainham Essex

1871
SIDER, Henry Head M 32 1839 Essex LAbourer Dagenham
SIDER, Eliza Wife F 27 1844 Cambridgeshire Wisbech
SIDER, Henry Ch Son M 8 1863 Essex Plaistow
SIDER, Mary Ann Daughter F 6 1865 Essex Plaistow
SIDER, Frederick W Son M 1 1870 Essex Plaistow

1881 22, Scott St, West Ham
SIDD, Henry Head Married M 42 1839 Stevedore Dagenham Essex
SIDD, Eliza Wife Married F 39 1842 Wisbeach Cambridgeshire
SIDD, Eliza Daughter Single F 9 1872 Scholar Canning Town Essex
SIDD, George Son Single M 6 1875 Scholar Canning Town Essex
SIDD, Edmund Son Single M 4 1877 Scholar Canning Town Essex
SIDD, Emma Daughter Single F 1 1880 Canning Town Essex

The one I am looking for is the 1871 Census where they seem to spell their name "Sider" and then it turns into "Sida". Talk about confusing!!

So when did Henry Sida (Sider) die? It must have been after 1886 as the Marriage Certificate for Mary Ann Sida marrying Charles Townsend did not say he was deceased.

I have found an entry for Mary Ann SIDER being born in West Ham in 1868

Sandykt wrote:The one I am looking for is the 1871 Census where they seem to spell their name "Sider" and then it turns into "Sida". Talk about confusing!!

So when did Henry Sida (Sider) die? It must have been after 1886 as the Marriage Certificate for Mary Ann Sida marrying Charles Townsend did not say he was deceased.

I have found an entry for Mary Ann SIDER being born in West Ham in 1868

This might be a possibility

Name: Henry Sida
Estimated birth year: abt 1838
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 50
District: Poplar (To 1965)
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c