Arc pending look up...Diversion from Richard Young

[gardener]

I also think his parents were Richard Young 1812-1891 and Susan Adlam 1812-1883; they also lived in Lichfield when Richard Young was born . Harriet is from Lichfield too, lived in Bromwich in 1871. Richard and Harriet lived together in 1881 on 32 Hill Street. I just noticed right next door on 30 Hill Street there is a William Stokes(65) and his wife Mary A. (55)....they live with their step-son John Richards who is either 25 or 35 can't read it.

I'm confused now too many Williams and Richards...

It is enough to confuse anybody!

We started with this:
11 Apr 1880 St Martin Tipton
Richard YOUNG 28 B Gas Erector Tipton Father Richard Young Groom?
Harriet Emma MEACHER 24 S Tipton Father William Meacher Coach Painter
After Banns Both Signed
Wit; Daniel Bennett / Ann Bennett X

And from the census we have Richard's birth place as West Bromwich.

If we look at Richard and Susan Young:

1861 Lichfield
Richard Young 51
Susan Young 50
Mary Young 13
Sarah Young 11
Richard Young 8 born Lichfield

1871 Lichfield
Richard Young 60
Susan Young 59
Ann L Young 29
Sarah Young 21
Richard Young 19 born Lichfield

1881 Lichfield
Richard Young 28 born Lichfield
Harriett Young 29
Ada Annie Young 3
William Young 1

1891 Lichfield
Richard Young 39 born Lichfield
Harriett Young 39
Ada Young 14
William Young 11
Sarah Young 8
Richard Young 6
Emily Young 4

Meanwhile, your Richard Young is this one

1881 West Bromwich
Richard Young 29 Born West Bromwich
Harriet E. Young 25
Alfred R. Young 1
Josiah J. Mansell 24

1891 West Bromwich
Richard Young 39 born West Bromwich
Harriet E Young 35
Alfred R Young 11
Harriet M Young 8
Henry A Young 6
William A Young 2

So there can be no doubt that the Lichfield one is not the right one. He died in 1906 (see your other thread) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17133

[Northern Lass]

St Thomas Marriage courtesy of RF
interesting...............she puts father as Samuel Richards Bootmaker
I will add to Bcc notes.

Marriage info added by Jan looked up by RF 24-2-14
18th December 1853 St Thomas Dudley
William Stokes full widower Boatloader Dudley Joseph Stokes Boat loader
Mary Ann Richards full spinster Dudley Samuel Richards Bootmaker
banns
X William Mary Ann signed
wit X Eliza Turner Joseph Turner


Ok so why on baptisms is just Marys name only on............Gardener was that all it said on each one?
Was that from IGI? or Ancestry images?

So John has no father.............was there anything on image on his marriage or just line? or word deceased?

Mary Ann Richards bapt 1827

Mother of Mary ann Richards a Mary ??? she marries a ?? Richards
he dies
then she marries a Samuel Richards?

can we find marriage

[gardener]

Hang on a bit and I will answer

1841 West Brom
Hill Top
John Oakley 30 Cordwainer? y (Transcribed as Cokley)
Mary ditto 50 n
Thos Richard 20 Cordwainer y
Will? ditto 15 ditto y
Maryan ditto 12 y
Nancy ditto 10 y
--
John Hickham 15 Cordwainer

and we had them in 1851
John Oakley 44 shoemaker
Mary Oakley 51
John Richards 25
Maryann Young 24
John Richards 5

next door
Samuel Mansell 23
Nancy Mansell 21

[gardener]

St Thomas Marriage courtesy of RF
interesting...............she puts father as Samuel Richards Bootmaker
I will add to Bcc notes.

Marriage info added by Jan looked up by RF 24-2-14
18th December 1853 St Thomas Dudley
William Stokes full widower Boatloader Dudley Joseph Stokes Boat loader
Mary Ann Richards full spinster Dudley Samuel Richards Bootmaker
banns
X William Mary Ann signed
wit X Eliza Turner Joseph Turner


Ok so why on baptisms is just Marys name only on............Gardener was that all it said on each one? ? Did I say that
Was that from IGI? or Ancestry images?

So John has no father.............was there anything on image on his marriage or just line? or word deceased? Just line for name of father and occupation also

Mary Ann Richards bapt 1827

Mother of Mary ann Richards a Mary ??? she marries a ?? Richards
he dies
then she marries a Samuel Richards?

can we find marriage

These may children for Mary and Samuel Richards (IGI) father: Samuel Richards mother: Mary

Thomas Richards
christening: 8 April 1821 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

William Richards
christening: 9 March 1823 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND


John Richards
christening: 23 May 1824 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

Mary Ann Richards
christening: 24 June 1827 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

I don't see Nancy's baptism there but Thomas, William and Mary Ann fit with the 1841 census, and then John is on the 1851 census.

So it looks to me as though Mary Ann Richards had a liaison with Richard Young (perhaps) and had Richard Young with him, baptised (?) from IGI

Richard Young
christening: 25 May 1851 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND
father: Richard Young
mother: Mary Ann

then Richard dies or goes, and Mary Ann marries as spinster (Thanks FR) giving her father as Samuel Richards

18th December 1853 St Thomas Dudley
William Stokes full widower Boatloader Dudley Joseph Stokes Boat loader
Mary Ann Richards full spinster Dudley Samuel Richards Bootmaker
banns
X William Mary Ann signed
wit X Eliza Turner Joseph Turner

I presume Samuel Richards had died at some point** and Mary Richards married John Oakley, perhaps this marriage (?)

2nd Sept 1833 St Phillip B'ham
John Oakley otp bach
Mary Richards otp widow
banns
John signed X Mary Richards
wit X Sarah Parkes Thos Parkes

** perhaps this one since he lived at Hill Top which is where Mary was in 1841 - bit fast off the mark at remarrying if that is the case

FreeReg
County Staffordshire
Place West Bromwich
Church All Saints (Bishops Transcripts)
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 04 Jul 1833
Forename Samuel
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname RICHARDS
Age 53
Abode Hill Top
Notes
FileNumber 29645

[gardener]

I think this John Richards married in Lambeth Jan 28th 1885
wife Sarah Eliza Hunt but John left his father's name blanck

1891 Lambeth
Sarah E Richards 41
John W Richards 6
Charlotte C Richards 4

1901 West Brom
John Richards 55
Sarah Richards 50
John Richards 16
Charlette Richards 14

this John Richards was born abt 1846, no name on his marriage certificate, living as grandson to Mary Oakley in 1851, aged 5. I think he is most likely to be illegitimate son of Mary Ann.

[gardener]

Births Jun 1851
Young Richard W Bromwich 18 663


Births Dec 1850
Stokes Richard W Bromwich 18 609

I think this Richard Stokes is perhaps the following one (so nothing to do with the problem)

1861 census Sheffield
John Stokes 35
Jane Stokes 34
Richard Stokes 10 born West Bromwich
Joseph Stokes 8
Sarah Jane Stokes 6

To recap: Mary Richards married John Oakley, no children of their own, Mary's kids with them in 1841/51
Mary Ann Richards was mother to Richard Young but then she married William Stokes and Richard appears with that surname until he pops up again as Richard Young when he marries.
I'm not sure about the John Stokes who is there in 1861. I wonder if he is actually John Richards (the one who married giving no father's name). He may have been included by his step-father as a Stokes, but also filled in by his grandmother as a Richards. Or he could be Williams son.

1861 West Bromwich
William Stokes 43
Mary A Stokes 33
John Stokes 14
Richard Stokes 10
Hannah Stokes 6
Lousia A Stokes 4
Joseph Stokes 1

1861 West Bromwich
Mary Oakley 72
John Richards 15

Added later: John Stokes seems to be William's son

1851
William Stokes 36 boatloader born West Brom
Hannah Stokes 39
Sarah Stokes 15
William Stokes 12
Mary Stokes 9
John Stokes 4

1841
William Stokes 25 boatloader
Hannah Stokes 25
Sarah Stokes 5
William Stokes 2
Mary Stokes 2 M

[gardener]

From IGI
father: William Stokes
mother: Mary Ann



Hannah Stokes
christening: 20 May 1855 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

Louisa Ann Stokes
christening: 15 March 1857 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

Joseph Stokes
christening: 26 June 1864 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

Samuel Stokes
christening: 26 June 1864 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

Alice Nancy Stokes
christening: 5 September 1867 ALL SAINTS,WEST BROMWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND

[gardener]

And to go back to the first post on this thread

William Richards was half brother to Louisa Anna Stokes and also half brother to Richard Young. William lived in the north for a while and his daughter Charlotte married and stayed there. May explain why Louisa Ann Stokes pops up there.

1891 West Bromwich
William Stokes 78 born West Brom
Mary Ann Stokes 65 born Wednesbury
Leanna Ann Richards 41 (says Louisa Ann) unm niece born West Brom (niece because Mary Ann is sister to Louisa's father William)
Elizabeth A Evans 14 (granddaughter) born West Brom
William A Evans 7 (grandson) born Monmouthshire
Tassia M Evans 3 (granddaughter) born West Brom (says Louisa M)

1881 Kingston upon Hull
William Richards 58
Charlotte Elizabeth Richards 27
Annie Masterman 17

1871 Hull
William Richard 48
Racheal Richard 50
Louisa A Richard 21
Charlotte Richard 17
Ann Jackson 22

1861 Hull
William Richards 38
Rachel Richards 39
Charlotte Elizabet Richards 7

1851 West Bromwich
William Richards 28 (This is William Richards son of Mary and Samuel I think)
Rachel Richards 30
Louisa Ann Richards 1
John Seymour 17
Edward Ranson 16
Sarah Mills 18

(I have stopped now )

[GreekEnglishGal]

Off topic: is it normal for every branch of your tree to be a soap opera? The more I find out, the more

[GreekEnglishGal]

I am posting this in case it comes in handy one day

1911 has Richard Young in Stockton on Tees
Lousia Ann Stother 54 (should read Louisa Ann Stokes, born 1857 West Bromwich, down as head but it looks as though sister has been crossed out)
Louie Murice Evans 23 (born 1888 West Bromwich, niece of Louisa Ann)
Richard Young 59

1891 West Bromwich
William Stokes 78 born West Brom
Mary Ann Stokes 65 born Wednesbury
Leanna Ann Richards 41 (says Louisa Ann) unm niece born West Brom
Elizabeth A Evans 14 (granddaughter) born West Brom
William A Evans 7 (grandson) born Monmouthshire
Tassia M Evans 3 (granddaughter) born West Brom (says Louisa M)

1881 West Bromwich
William Stokes 65
Mary A. Stokes 55
Samuel Stokes 18
Alice Stokes 13
John Richards 35 (stepson)

NEXT HOUSE
Richard Young 29
Harriet E. Young 25
Alfred R. Young 1
Josiah J. Mansell 24

1871 West Bromwich
William Stakes 56 (reads Stokes) born Wednesbury
Mary Ann Stakes 43 born West Brom, as all kids)
Richard Stakes 19
Hannah Stakes 16
Louisa Stakes 14
Joseph Stakes 12
Samuel Stakes 9
Alice Stakes 3

1871 Wset Brom
Nancey Mansell 41
Samuel Mansell 14
Thomas Mansell 12
Frances Mansell 10
Mary A Mansell 7
Mary Oakley 82

1861 West Bromwich
William Stokes 43
Mary A Stokes 33
John Stokes 14
Richard Stokes 10
Hannah Stokes 6
Lousia A Stokes 4
Joseph Stokes 1

1861 West Bromwich
Mary Oakley 72
John Richards 15

1851 West Bromwich
John Oakley 44
Mary Oakley 51
John Richards 25 unm wife's son
Maryann Young 24 m wife's dau
John Richards 5 grandson

NEXT HOUSE
Samuel Mansell 23
Nancy Mansell 21 (see post below, this is Nancy Richards)


1853 marriage
STOKES William RICHARDS Mary A Dudley, St Thomas Dudley Register Office 204/013/178

Make what you will of that! Perhaps Mary Ann was not actually married to Mr Young (Richard I presume to fit with the baptism of Richard Young in 1851 at West Brom)

Name: Richard Young
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 25 May 1851
Baptism Place: All Saints,West Bromwich,Stafford,England
Father: Richard Young
Mother: Mary Ann

This is Louisa Ann's baptism
Name: Louisa Ann Stokes
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 15 Mar 1857
Baptism Place: All Saints,West Bromwich,Stafford,England
Father: William Stokes
Mother: Mary Ann

1851 West Bromwich
John Oakley 44
Mary Oakley 51
John Richards 25 unm wife's son
Maryann Young 24 m wife's dau
John Richards 5 grandson


Name: Richard Young
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 25 May 1851
Baptism Place: All Saints,West Bromwich,Stafford,England
Father: Richard Young
Mother: Mary Ann

I agree that Richard YOUNG was living as Richard STOKES for a bit, but why did he go back to Richard YOUNG, where was he in 1871? He married Harriet Meacham in 1880. Where did his father go? I cannot find a marriage certificate, so does that mean the true father is impossible to track?

Mary Ann married STOKES in 1853, so Richard jr. would barely remember his father. Wasn't it quite taboo then to have an illegitimate child? I just don't see how Richard jr. knew he was really a YOUNG. It seems both his mother and grandmother had illegitimate children. I would think they would make Richard think Stokes was his father?

I guess the Young side of my tree is permanently stumped, I thought for sure it would branch into the royal family the further back I went.

[GreekEnglishGal]

Also, what about the little 5 year old John RICHARDS...please tell me that is not the child of John Richards and Maryann YOUNG who are siblings or maybe 1/2 siblings knowing how OAKLEY gets around. In 1881, the census states that John Richards, now 35 is a step-son to STOKES.



Maybe I am reading it wrong.

I am just imaging Mary Oakley's house with banjo music playing in the background now.

[GreekEnglishGal]

Name: Mary Ann Richards
Gender: Female
Birth Year: abt 1824
Marriage Date: 17 Apr 1850
Marriage Age: 26
Marriage Place: Birmingham, St Martin, Warwickshire, England
Spouse: Richard Youngs
Spouse Gender: Male
Spouse Marriage Age: 35
Father: Samuel Richards
Spouse's Father: Richard Youngs
Reference Number: DRO 34
Archive Roll: M118

Samuel Richards is Mary Ann's father, this is only 5 miles away...

The timing makes sense...

Richard Jr died there and kept his father's name....

[Northern Lass]

Name: Mary Ann Richards
Gender: Female
Birth Year: abt 1824
Marriage Date: 17 Apr 1850
Marriage Age: 26
Marriage Place: Birmingham, St Martin, Warwickshire, England
Spouse: Richard Youngs
Spouse Gender: Male
Spouse Marriage Age: 35
Father: Samuel Richards
Spouse's Father: Richard Youngs
Reference Number: DRO 34
Archive Roll: M118

Samuel Richards is Mary Ann's father, this is only 5 miles away...

The timing makes sense...

Richard Jr died there and kept his father's name....

that works nice one GEG
wit is Samuel Mansell and Nancy Richards

[gardener]

Well done GEG!
Odd that she got remarried as a spinster, but stranger things have happened.

Also, what about the little 5 year old John RICHARDS...please tell me that is not the child of John Richards and Maryann YOUNG who are siblings or maybe 1/2 siblings knowing how OAKLEY gets around. In 1881, the census states that John Richards, now 35 is a step-son to STOKES.

Yes,because of the 1881 census I think John Richards was Mary Ann's son. John's marriage seems to be on Ancestry, took place in Lambeth and he left his father's name blank. So perhaps he did not share a father with Richard. I don't see any reason to think that his father was also his uncle

[peterd]

poss reason she puts spinster on marriage if the husbands were related ?