Genealogy Forum UK

3am and I can't sleep, thinking about the Neals! Thanks for the replies.

If the John Neal 1844 and Jane Neal 1846 submitted Christenings are correct, they belong to the shoemaker John Neal. The baptism for Elizabeth 26/6/1842 shows she belongs to shoemaker John. The marriage Shoreditch 2/301 is the certificate I have for John Neal and Jane Donson/Dousan , 4/5/1842 St John the Baptist, Hoxton, which shows John as a shoemaker. I had found the 1881 Ford Street entry for John but can't see any way of telling if he is son of the shoemaker John or the John married to Manchester Jane? It would be good if it was Manchester Jane's John as it gives me the name Cartwright to play with!

I hadn't found the 1861 7 Mintern St, Hoxton Old Town, Middlesex, but that seems to be yet another John Neal(e)?

The 1881 4 Aylesbury Street Newington, Surrey John again could be the son of either of the Johns.

I'm guessing that John, Jane and Elizabeth shown with shoemaker John in 1861 were the children of first wife Jane Donson, while Fannie and Mary Anne were the children of second wife mary Anne. It still seems a real coincidence that the first two match the children of John and Manchester Jane in 1851 (and Elizabeth b1843) and they are not with these parents in 1861. I have found an Elizabeth boarding with 2 ladies in Enfield (RG9/799/50/24) who could possibly fit.

The wedding certificate I have shows that John Thomas Neal's father is John Thomas Neal (so another John!!!) and he also is a shoemaker. The witnesses are John Thomas Neal and Emmeline(?) Scott. John is of full age and Jane Donson is a minor.

I can't understand why there do not seem to be any BMD's for John Neal and Manchester Jane's family (which would seem to be the one that fits my interest of Elizabeth as it is Manchester Jane that 'marries' Joseph Thornton), at least none that I can find? The only way I can get it all to fit is if John Neal is living a double life in 1861, as a farrier living with Manchester Jane without children and also as a shoe polisher with Mary Ann and his children. This can't be possible though if the birthdate of 14/6/1853 for Elizabeth is correct as the baptism date which shows her as the daughter of shoemaker John is 26/6/1852 - but I can't find the birth registration to fit in with the birthdate of 14/6/1853!

Thanks for your interest.

Just putting some of these events in sequence:

Marriage, extracted:
JOHN THOMAS NEAL
JANE DONSON
Marriage: 04 MAY 1842 Saint John The Baptist, Shoreditch, London,

Elizabeth says: "I also have a marriage certificate for John Neal, shoemaker and Jane Donson in 1842 so Mary Ann is his second wife."

Christening, submitted:
John Neal
Christening: 1844 St Lukes, London, England
Parents: John Thomas Neal
Jane Donson

Christening, submitted:
Jane Neal
Christening: 1846 Whitechapel, London, England
Father: John Thomas Neal
Mother: Jane Donson

1851
29 Gt. Saffron Hill, Saffron Hills, Finsbury
John Neal Head age 27, cleaner at warehouse? Born St Lukes
Jane Neal Wife age 25, born Manchester
John Neal Son age 7 born St Lukes
Jane Neal Daur age 5 born Whitechapel

1861 No. 15 Union Building, St. Giles Cripplegate, London
John Neal Head Mar., age 30, farrier, born St Lukes
Jane Neal Wife Mar., age 34, born Manchester
with 3 other families

1861: Blue Anchor Alley, Finsbury, St Luke, Middlesex
John T Neale 37 Head Shoe Polisher b.St Luke
Mary Ann Neale 24 Wife b.Hoxton
John Thomas Neale 18 Son b.St Luke
Jane Neale 16 Dau b.St Luke
Elizabeth Neale 9 Dau b.St Luke
James Neale 6 Son b.St Luke.
Mary Ann Neale 2 Dau b.St Luke

I think Jane may have left John with the children in Finsbury and moved to St. Giles Cripplegate on her own. For respectability, she has given his name as her husband in 1861, but he was not present to give his correct age or occupation ("shoemaker" being misinterpreted as "horseshoe maker" or "farrier" by the enumerator?). This could explain the lack of a marriage for either Jane and Joseph Thornton, or for John Neal and Mary Ann.

Hmmm, interesting too, that in 1871 & 1881, Joseph Thornton is said to be a "farrier"!!! Maybe Jane was already with Joseph, but not 'fessing up?

That would fit!!!
Perhaps John traded Jane in for a younger model (Mary Ann 24 in 1861) and Jane went off with Joseph Thornton. It would explain why we cant find anything in the indexes for the children of John Neal and Manchester Jane. I

It's always seemed strange that John went from being a cleaner in 1851 to being a farrier in 1861 and I have just noticed (don't know how I missed it!) that in1861 when he is a shoe polisher with Mary Ann, his father is on the same census
page
John Neale, head, 61 shoemaker as shown on John Neals and Jane Donson's marriage cert
Martha, wife, 58
Mary Ann, daug, 21
Rebecca, daug 14

There is a discrepancy between Neal and Neale but I guess that could quite easily happen. I now need to find jane Donson/Douson/? born Manchester in 1841.

Thank you so much for your help!

It's a pleasure, Elizabeth!

Is this still a Brick Wall?
Or have you solved it?

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