Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby grangers14 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:57 pm

1911. 52, Albert St, Oldbury.
William Thomas, head, 25, Brick Burner
Maria, wife, 25, married 3 years 2 children both living
William, son, 3,
Maria, daur, 1
All born Oldbury
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby rockyfowler » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:10 pm

THOMAS, MARY ANN -
GRO Reference: 1872 D Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 796[/quote]
My Grandmother was Mary Thomas (I have no hint of middle name) and was possibly born about 1885.

On the 1939 Census she put her name as Mary E so prob Elizabeth after her mother regards RF
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:09 pm

rockyfowler wrote:THOMAS, MARY ANN -
GRO Reference: 1872 D Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 796

My Grandmother was Mary Thomas (I have no hint of middle name) and was possibly born about 1885.

On the 1939 Census she put her name as Mary E so prob Elizabeth after her mother regards RF[/quote]
Sorry RF but I do not have that on my notes, from the 1939 register -> Mary Varney (nee Thomas) b 6 Mar 1886 Married Brass Turner living at 139 Reginald Road, Saltley Ron
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Northern Lass » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:59 am

Name Morris here

THOMAS, WILLIAM MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in WESTBROMWICH Volume 06B Page 728

2 William Thomas West Brom June Qtr 1885
Maiden porter and a Longmore



West Midlands Marriage indexes for the years: 1878
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PORTER Abigail THOMAS Timothy J West Bromwich, Christ Church Sandwell Register Office 23/6/65
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby gardener » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:54 am

Northern Lass wrote:Name Morris here

THOMAS, WILLIAM MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in WESTBROMWICH Volume 06B Page 728

2 William Thomas West Brom June Qtr 1885
Maiden porter and a Longmore



West Midlands Marriage indexes for the years: 1878
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PORTER Abigail THOMAS Timothy J West Bromwich, Christ Church Sandwell Register Office 23/6/65


No. THOMAS, WILLIAM MORRIS GRO Reference: 1887 S Quarter in WESTBROMWICH Volume 06B Page 728 is this one

1901
William Thomas 39 born Oldbury
Emily Thomas 34
William Thomas 13
John E Thomas 11
Emily Thomas 8
Arthur B Thomas 4
May Thomas 2
Merrnie Thomas 2/12

Emily was a Morris.

1881
Edward Morriss 42
Elizabeth Morriss 40
Maria Morriss 16
Emily Morriss 14
Eliza Morriss 11
Susannah Morriss 9
Mary Ann Morriss 6
Louisa Morriss 3
Hannah Morriss

1891
Edward Morris 52
Elisabeth Morris 51
Elisa Morris 21
Susannah Morris 19
Hannah Morris 10
William Thomas 3
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:29 am

This is a repeat of an earlier observation - I had spent quite a bit of time looking at the possible "Morris" connection but could not resolve the dates to my satisfaction.
According to the 1881/1891 censuses and idea of "Morris" as grandparents, I thought that Edward (1839) and Elizabeth (1840) were most likely too young. All the pointers for Elizabeth indicate her birth was round about 1850. if these dates are to be believed Elizabeth's parents would both only have been 10 or 11 at that time.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Northern Lass » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:36 am

Can someone with access find William Thomas born 1886 on 1939 wife maria

Maybe we can pinpoint birth record if we have dob from 1939

Not Morris one so could it be the longmore one..the Porte one looks like an Abigail porter


William Thomas West Brom June Qtr 1885
Mother Maiden names. porter and a Longmore
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby gardener » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:42 pm

As far as I can see, these are the known "ages". There are no confirmed matching births or baptisms found for them, the family has not been located in 1881 and no marriage found for the parents.
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"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby rockyfowler » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:57 pm

1861
Albert Street, Oldbury, West Bromwich, Worcestershire, England

Maria Thomas Head Widow Female 59 1802 Fishmonger Tipton, Staffordshire, England
John Thomas Son Unmarried Male 28 1833 Coal Miner Tipton, Staffordshire, England
Edward Thomas Son Unmarried Male 20 1841 Coal Miner Oldbury, Worcestershire, England
David Wright Lodger Unmarried Male 19 1842 Coal Miner Not Known
Charles Taylor Lodger Unmarried Male 25 1836 Coal Miner Not Known

1911
52 Albert St Oldbury, Oldbury, Worcestershire, England


William Thomas Head Married Male 25 1886 Brick Burner Oldbury Worcester
Maria Thomas Wife Married Female 25 1886 - Oldbury Worcester
William Thomas Son - Male 3 1908 - Oldbury Worcester
Maria Thomas Daughter - Female 1 1910 - Oldbury Worcester
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:06 pm

Re Last 2 posts:
I agree with table of dates suggested with the following two observations, I have no proof that Maria/Mary was a servant for John Sidney Baylis at the Crown & Anchor – 1911 census but admit the details are a good fit. Elizabeth/Lizzie Thomas married James Cronshaw on the 1st August 1899 at the registry office (Blackpool, Lancashire), her stated age was 18.

I do not recognise any of details in the 1861 census posted that match up with any other known or suspected details found so far.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Northern Lass » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:45 am

Think we are stuck on this moving to brick walls.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:53 pm

Hello, Following someone’s suggestion that the family may have changed their name, and subsequent searches and cross checking. I am now back armed with some certificates regarding the births of Mary Bullock 6 March 1888 and Hannah Bullock 11 July 1875. Also, for the marriage of Joseph Bullock age 21, labourer – Titford with Elizabeth Barnsley age 22 servant – Titford on December 26th 1870.

I am now 99.9% convinced that the family that is recorded up to the birth of Mary in1888 as Bullock for some reason changed their surname to Thomas prior to the 1891 census. There is no trace of the “Thomas” family of Joseph and Elizabeth with their children prior to 1891 census and conversely no trace of the “Bullock” family of Joseph and Elizabeth with their children after the 1881 census.

Bullock-Thomas comparison.jpg
Bullock-Thomas comparison.jpg (124.44 KiB) Viewed 331 times

The only two of Joseph & Elizabeth Tomas’s children that I have been able to follow through their lives with any degree of certainty are Hannah and Mary, so I concentrated on their stories.
The Birth certificate for Mary Bullock records her dob as 6 March 1888 – which almost corresponds with the 1939 register listing for Mary Thomas of 6 March 1886. The recorded dates for Hannah do not match so closely – the birth certificate for Hannah Bullock records her dob as 11 July 1875 whereas the 1939 register lists Hannah Thomas/Knight as 29 July 1873. I would not be surprised if Joseph and Elizabeth were illiterate (marriage certificate singed with their crosses) so it would be conceivable for the exact dates/ages to be forgotten over the years.

I am unable to account for a lack of records for the birth of John Thomas b 1886!

All that remains is the reason why Joseph and Elizabeth saw (what seems drastic to us) the need to adopt an entirely new family name. It is possible that they were even living in the same house when they took the new name. Mary Bullock’s 1888 birth certificate states the residence as Canal Side, Albion, West Bromwich – and the 1891 census lists the address as Canal Side, Bromford Lane, West Bromwich. The census entry that is 3 before Joseph and Elizabeth is for Albion Road, West Bromwich.

I had never come across a family changing their Surname like this before, so I thought that you and you followers might find this interesting.
Thank you all for your interest and help with this search.
Another Brick Wall smashed.
Ron :P
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