ARC TBC - Elizabeth Burgess - when did she die?

[snoopysue]

Can anyone help with a death for Elizabeth?
Here's what I've got so far:

Elizabeth was born on the 28th Oct 1813, baptised in Birmingham, daughter of Richard and Elizabeth Thompson.
She married John Burgess (occupation - carpenter) on the 11 Dec 1837 at the parish church (St Bartholemew's) in Edgbaston. At the time of her marriage she was living at Woodcock Street (presumably Edgbaston too?).

The couples's first child, Elizabeth Burgess (known as Betsy), was born on the 26 Nov 1839 in Newtown Row, Birmingham (this is possibly at John's parents - they lived here for many years).
William followed in 1844, and Emma in 1846 (she sadly died at ten weeks old - mother Elizabeth was the informant on Death Cert).

The census has the family in Harding Street, Birmingham in 1841.

By 1851 John and William are to be found in New John Street, where they had lived at least since 1846, as recorded on Emma's death cert. To me the census image looks to state that John is married rather than widowed. I have not located Elizabeth in 1851.
Daughter Betsy is with her grandmother Sarah Burgess in New Town Row.

I haven't found John in 1861, but on the 24th May 1868 he married Hannah Hurburt (Blackman) in All Saint's Church, Birmingham. Both parties are widowed.
The couple then move to Great Barr (there is a story that John was a gamekeeper, for a big house - this may be him as wheelwright rather than gamekeeper at Barr Lodge, although dob is out on 1871 Census).

In 1881 they are still in Great Barr, address ? Questlett Lane. Wife is down as Anna rather than Hannah, but the ages are a bit better!

In 1891 they have moved to Herbert Street, West Bromwich (daughter Betsy has been living in West Brom since the 1870's)- no occupation for John, but Hannah is down as Parish Relief, as is the entry before John.

John died on the 18th May 1895 at the Union Workhouse - daughter Betsy was in attendance (she was a nurse and midwife). Occupation is recorded as Wood Sawyer of West Bromwich.

What I really need to find out is what happened to Elizabeth? Was she alive in 1851, and if so where was she? And when did she die? I have a working guess of somewhere between 1851 and 1868, although it may have been earlier.

[Maths girl]

When I had a mother that went missing I later found her in prison -- she had been entered with just her initials but she had a baby with her that was given its full name. -- I did at least know that she reappeared so kept looking.

Is it possible she was in hospital in 1851 -- depressed having lost the baby?

[grangers14]

??

Deaths Sep 1850
BURGESS Elizabeth Nuneaton 16 317

Deaths Dec 1856
Burgess Elizabeth Birmingham 6d 131

Deaths Mar 1857
Burgess Elizabeth Birmingham 6d 9

Deaths Dec 1860
BURGESS Elizabeth Birmingham 6d 98

[gardener]

I wonder if this is John in 1861 - it does say Bulgess but could have got scrambled between the original and the collated record

Elms Inn, Aldridge
Fredrick Crumpton 42
Elizabeth Crumpton 40
John D Crumpton 14
Emela Crumpton 11
Mary D Crumpton 9
Thomas Crumpton 7
Edward Crumpton 5
Sarah Crumpton 2
Mary Dulce 19
Mary Ann Smith 15
John Bulgess 40 lodger wid house carpenter Birmingham

Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 2018; Folio: 6; Page: 8; GSU roll: 542904.

[snoopysue]

That looks like it could be a possible for the 1861 census.
It may be a case of narrowing down the possibilities - if I send for a death cert for 1856 without GRO ref, it'll cover both 1856 and 1857.
The Nuneaton death in 1850 seems least likely, unless for some reason Elizabeth was in Nuneaton - she was missing in 1851, so you never know.

[gardener]

I wondered about this one too

Deaths Dec 1847
Burgess Elizabeth Walsall 17 179

sometimes people are entered on the census as married when they are widowed. But the Birmingham ones do look most likely.

[snoopysue]

I wondered about this one too

Deaths Dec 1847
Burgess Elizabeth Walsall 17 179

sometimes people are entered on the census as married when they are widowed. But the Birmingham ones do look most likely.

It's not too far out, taking into consideration that John did live in Great Barr later, not too far from Walsall. I have considered that John may have been widowed by 1851, especially as I can't find Elizabeth in 1851, I tried widening the search area, and using alternative names such as Betsy, Eliza etc. I've also tried to be less specific as far as age goes, but no luck as yet.
There is no burial for the Birmingham area on ancestry, but I do wonder - if she died and was buried somewhere else, could her death still be recorded in Birmingham?

[gardener]

No, her death should be registered where she died, irrespective of the burial site.

[gardener]

FMP has Warwickshire Burials

Last name First name Born Died Event Category Location View
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1856 1856 Deaths & burials Warwickshire, England
Transcription
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1857 1857 Deaths & burials Warwickshire, England
Transcription
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1860 1860 Deaths & burials Warwickshire, England

Perhaps someone with a sub could look at those records and then you could cross them off this list (also FMP):

BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1844 1844 Deaths & burials Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Image
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1856 1856 Deaths & burials Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Image
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1857 1857 Deaths & burials Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Image
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1860 1860 Deaths & burials Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Image
BURGESS BETSY — 1864 1864 Deaths & burials Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

The first and last can be crossed off already, can't they?

[snoopysue]

FMP has Warwickshire Burials

Last name First name Born Died Event Category Location View
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1856 1856 Deaths & burials Warwickshire, England
Transcription
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1857 1857 Deaths & burials Warwickshire, England
Transcription
BURGESS ELIZABETH — 1860 1860 Deaths & burials Warwickshire, England

I've already seen these - unfortunately the transcripts don't help, as they don't list relatives, ages or anything that can rule them in or out.

You're right about the first death in 1844 - Elizabeth was certainly alive in 1846. I'll order the death cert for 1856, but without GRO references, so their search will include 1857. If that is a no go, I'll try 1860.

[grangers14]

I dint know you could do that. Might it not be worth contacting local registras and ask about informant, place of death or date of birth to save money?
Jo

[snoopysue]

I dint know you could do that. Might it not be worth contacting local registras and ask about informant, place of death or date of birth to save money?
Jo

I order my certificates through gro.gov.co.uk (I can pay by card here, rather than by cheque)
If I add the references then I get the certificate regardless, if I don't add the references, it takes a bit longer, but if they don't find a match I get a refund. The down side is that they only tell you that they haven't found a record that matches, without any details.
You get to add an address, and occupation - under occupation I usually put husbands name and occupation, as most women don't have an occupation that gets recorded. As far as the date goes they search a year either side of the date you put in, so if I put on 1/1/1857, they'll search 1856 and 1857.
Sometimes if they tell me there's not a match I might send for the certificate using references anyway- with mixed results. I'll only consider doing this if there doesn't seem to be more than one possible entry.

[BC Wench]

Is this still a Brickwall, or have you solved it?

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