British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms

[Tempest]

Has anyone used the “British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms”?
My wife has an ancestor called Isaac Cheetham, on every source I’ve found he is born 1812 in Nottingham. I can’t find his birth record, but if I open the search to +/-5 years and no location the only entry that pops up is on this forces register but born 1816 and in Dover! Frustratingly no parents are given. Regiment is given as 40th Foot Regiment. Interestingly Isaac later served with the 30th Foot.
Is there a way of looking further into these records? Could it be just when the birth was registered and not the actual birth date?
TIA

[BC Wench]

This looks like your Isaac Chetham.

https://billiongraves.com/grave/Isaac-Chetham/17535396

Isaac Chetham
Died: 19 Oct 1854
Cemetery
Nottingham (General aka Canning Circus) Cemetery
Talbot Street
City of Nottingham, East Midlands, England
United Kingdom
Epitaph
Sacred to the memory of Isaac Chetham. Adjutant of H. M. 40th Foot who fell asleep in Christ Oct. 19th 1854. aged 73 years. He was actively engaged in nineteen general battles and sieges during the expedition to Holland and the Peninsular war and was three times dangerously wounded. He lived and died in the faith of the Gospel. Also Mary Chetham widow of the above who died at Sheffield Nov. 26th 1859 aged 87 years.

There are a number of images available on Ancestry and FMP for Isaac.

In a nutshell from British Army Officers' Widow's Pension 1755-1908 records.

Isaac was Baptized in June 1781 - Isaac son of Edward Cheetham & Mary, Nottingham.

He married Mary Horel on the 7th December 1802 in Halifax, America - it says America but on other info it says Halifax, Nova Scotia.

His daughter Elizabeth was baptised 25 August 1816 at The Garrison Church of St Mary's, Dover Castle, Kent. Parents: Isaac & Mary Cheetham - Abode: Dover Castle - Occ: Lieut. in the 40th Reg. of Foot. This is probably where the Dover connection is which you found.

Copy of Death Certificate: Isaac died 19 October 1854, aged 73yrs, a Rent Collector, died of Natural Causes and buried Nottingham (General aka Canning Circus) Cemetery.

[Tempest]

Morning BC,
Thanks again, as I said on the other thread last night, this Isaac Cheetham you found was the possible father of our Isaac Cheetham. This Isaac was at Dover but this reasearcher didn’t list a son called Isaac only an Elizabeth born 1816
http://www.myfamilyarchive.co.uk/people ... -cheetham/

He also features in this article
https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/is ... tons-army/

But as on my opening post on this thread it’s linking the two via that Dover BAF and overseas births and baptisms that was proving difficult

[gardener]

Has anyone used the “British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms”?
My wife has an ancestor called Isaac Cheetham, on every source I’ve found he is born 1812 in Nottingham. I can’t find his birth record, but if I open the search to +/-5 years and no location the only entry that pops up is on this forces register but born 1816 and in Dover! Frustratingly no parents are given. Regiment is given as 40th Foot Regiment. Interestingly Isaac later served with the 30th Foot.
Is there a way of looking further into these records? Could it be just when the birth was registered and not the actual birth date?
TIA

I think you would have to pay to view the record and see what it says. It looks as though this is a collection of records from more than one source so the details may be variable.

Your Isaac is the one who married Mary Tierney? Was that in Ireland?

I suppose it is a tenuous connection that their first daughter was baptised at Methodist New Connexion - didn't Elizabeth dau. of the older Isaac marry an Independent minister?

[Tempest]

Hi Gardener, this Isaac Cheetham has intrigued me so much I wouldn't mind paying!! I guess its a GRO thing?

Yes my Isaac Cheetham did indeed marry Mary Tierney, she was Irish, I think he must have met her while serving with the 30th Foot Regiment there, they had a child, but it was a son Edward Cheetham born 1832 in Ireland not a daughter. He then got posted off to Bermuda with the Regiment. He was invalided out (don't know what happened?) and he and Mary then married in 1835 in Beeston, Nottingham (don't know what the Beeston connection is?)

I don't know of this Elizabeth you mention?

Thanks

[gardener]

Name: Ann Cheetham
Gender: Female
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 11 May 1835
Baptism Date: 7 Jun 1835
Baptism Place: Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
Denomination: Methodist New Connexion
Father:
Isaac Cheetham Frame-work knitter, Parish of St Mary
Mother:
Mary Tierney dau. of Barney Tierney, tailor Dublin, Ireland


Name: Isaac Cheetham
Gender: Male
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 3 Oct 1836
Baptism Date: 16 Oct 1836
Baptism Place: Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father:
Isaac Cheetham
Mother:
Maria Tierney

Ann's entry actually says First Daughter of... the Independent lots sometimes added extra info like that

The National Archives say:
"Indexes to births, marriages and deaths in the armed forces (1761–1995)
Search indexes to the regimental registers, British Army chaplains’ registers, army returns and service departments registers in the military section on findmypast (charges apply). The related certificates can be obtained from the General Register Office.

The indexes to the regimental registers give a name, place, year and regiment.

Army chaplains’ registers (1796–1880) relate to births, marriages and deaths overseas. The index gives a name, place and date range of two to three years."

Which is a bit unclear! But paying on Familysearch would be the way to go I suppose

[gardener]

Hi Gardener, this Isaac Cheetham has intrigued me so much I wouldn't mind paying!! I guess its a GRO thing?

Yes my Isaac Cheetham did indeed marry Mary Tierney, she was Irish, I think he must have met her while serving with the 30th Foot Regiment there, they had a child, but it was a son Edward Cheetham born 1832 in Ireland not a daughter. He then got posted off to Bermuda with the Regiment. He was invalided out (don't know what happened?) and he and Mary then married in 1835 in Beeston, Nottingham (don't know what the Beeston connection is?)

I don't know of this Elizabeth you mention?

Thanks

Sorry, I was too tired to make sense I think.

Elizabeth, born 1816 in Dover, went on to marry John Flather who was a dissenting minister in the 1841 census (where they are living with Mary Chetham on Mansfield Road. In 1861 John is a Methodist New Connexion minister in Sheffield, and the first daughter (Ann) of Isaac and Mary Tierney was baptised at the Methodist New Connexion on Parliement Street in 1835

[Tempest]

Morning Gardener, at my last count I had eleven children for Isaac and Mary, I shall have to up it by one, I didn’t have Ann b.1835 at all. Being first daughter works, first son was Edward b.1832 before they were married in Ireland. Isaac b.1836 that you refer to was baptised at St. Barnabas Catholic Church in Nottingham so that ties in with my findings. Mary Tierney’s father is useful as well, I’d not found that, thanks.Isaac Cheetham twelve children and three different wives all called Mary! I wish I’d just stuck to his military life

[Tempest]

Think I found how I missed Ann Cheetham! Born 11 May 1835. Died 21 Dec 1835.

[gardener]

Three wives? Do none of them give any clues? Father's occupation or witnesses?

[gardener]

OK. So, is this right?

1881
Isaac Chatham (64) is living at 12 Rutland Street with wife Mary (44) and mother in law Hannah West

1871
Isaac is 59 and Mary 49 are at Rutland Street, but that is a different Mary and the 1881 Mary is living next door as Mary Hardy (35)widow in the West family household.

Freereg has


Marriage entry
While we have made all efforts to correctly record the information in the original document there may be different interpretations of the written words. If you have access to the original document and believe we have made a mistake you are encouraged to report this to us. Report an Error in this Data
Field
(only fields with a value are shown) Value
County Nottinghamshire
Place (Links to more information) Nottingham
Church name (Links to more information) St Mary
Marriage date 7 Jul 1875
Groom forename Isaac
Groom surname CHEETHAM
Groom age 60
Bride forename Mary
Bride surname HARDY
Bride age 39
Groom father forename Edward
Groom father surname CHEETHAM
Bride father forename John
Bride father surname HARDY
Notes Groom's father deceased. Bride's father deceased.


and there is this baptism


Baptism entry
Place (Links to more information) Nottingham
Church name (Links to more information) St Mary
Register type (Links to more information) Phillimore's Transcript
Baptism date 07 Nov 1811
Person forename Isaac
Person sex M
Father forename Edward
Mother forename Ann
Father surname CHEATHAM

not sure about Mary Hardy/West, but there is this marriage which would be after her birth

Place (Links to more information) Radford
Church name (Links to more information) St Peter
Marriage date 13 Apr 1841
Groom forename Thomas
Groom surname WEST
Groom age Full age
Bride forename Hannah
Bride surname HARDY
Bride age Full age
Groom father forename Elijah
Groom father surname WEST
Bride father forename John
Bride father surname HARDY
Notes Bride signed X.

Does that help at all?

[Tempest]

Your first two census entries are correct, and that is how I came to the conclusion of Mary No.3
I have that marriage certificate, it actually came yesterday but it just adds to the mystery of the situation. Although Isaac is living at 12 Rutland street as per census, and Mary Hardy is living next door, her mother must be that Hannah West. So yes as you say Mary Hardy by marriage and now a widow. Accepting all that the marriage certificate I have gives marriage 7 July 1875. Isaac Cheetham age 60, Widowed, a Storekeeper (as he is on the census) but both he and Mary Hardy give their address as Warser Gate (a different part of Nottingham City Centre!) His father is Edward Cheetham (died) profession J.W.K (don't know what that means?). Mary Hardy 39, Spinster (why when she was widowed?) address same as Isaac, father John Hardy (died) even though I'm convinced her father must be a West and profession Dentist.

Also arrived yesterday is a Birth Cert for this couples only child (Isaac's 12th) 9 February 1897 12, Rutland Street, father Isaac Cheetham, mother Mary Cheetham formerly Hardy, father occupation, Storekeeper.

I had Mary West marrying Edwin Hardy May 1867

I'll look into the Isaac Cheetham Baptism see if that works

to answer you question this all helps, but can't help thinking there's some sculduggery going on with Isaac family affairs, still no idea what happened to 1st wife Mary Tierney and for that matter this Mary from Rochester, Kent his 2nd? wife.

[gardener]

Your first two census entries are correct, and that is how I came to the conclusion of Mary No.3
I have that marriage certificate, it actually came yesterday but it just adds to the mystery of the situation. Although Isaac is living at 12 Rutland street as per census, and Mary Hardy is living next door, her mother must be that Hannah West. So yes as you say Mary Hardy by marriage and now a widow. Accepting all that the marriage certificate I have gives marriage 7 July 1875. Isaac Cheetham age 60, Widowed, a Storekeeper (as he is on the census) but both he and Mary Hardy give their address as Warser Gate (a different part of Nottingham City Centre!) His father is Edward Cheetham (died) profession J.W.K (don't know what that means?). Mary Hardy 39, Spinster (why when she was widowed?) address same as Isaac, father John Hardy (died) even though I'm convinced her father must be a West and profession Dentist.

Also arrived yesterday is a Birth Cert for this couples only child (Isaac's 12th) 9 February 1897 12, Rutland Street, father Isaac Cheetham, mother Mary Cheetham formerly Hardy, father occupation, Storekeeper.

I had Mary West marrying Edwin Hardy May 1867

I'll look into the Isaac Cheetham Baptism see if that works

to answer you question this all helps, but can't help thinking there's some sculduggery going on with Isaac family affairs, still no idea what happened to 1st wife Mary Tierney and for that matter this Mary from Rochester, Kent his 2nd? wife.

Perhaps Mary Hardy was never married. She was small when her mother married Thomas West so probably got absorbed into his family but later reverted to her own surname. I found her baptism - just in time for her wedding! And it also gives her father as a dentist.

Place (Links to more information) Nottingham
Church name (Links to more information) St Nicholas
Birth date 22 Feb 1836
Baptism date 21 Mar 1875
Person forename Mary
Person sex F
Father forename John
Mother forename Hannah
Father surname HARDY
Person abode Rutland St
Father occupation Dentist

Could J.W.K. be F.W.K.? For framework knitter?

[Tempest]

I see where your going with that, I think you’re on to it. Again I’m reading this late, tomorrow I’ll give it another read. Still not sure about the Warser Gate address for the two of them? There are several Inns on that street, I wonder if they felt they needed to spend time away from the main house before getting married?

[Tempest]

Any idea why I can’t find the civil marriage of Isaac Cheetham and Mary Tierney? I’ve found the parish entry marriage 2 Nov 1835 St. John’s the Baptist, Beeston, Nottingham. Mary’s name spelt “Tearney” on the marriage and “Jearney” on the Banns. But searching for civil I get nothing. Your source of parish records seems to give more than I get on FMP.

I’ve looked into Mary Hardy and her Baptism and mothers marriage and totally agree. Mary number 2 from Kent still proving a mystery.