Help with occupation of Exciseman

General discussion relating to ancestors trades and occupations.

Moderators: grangers14, admin, Northern Lass

Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby pwillia133 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:47 pm

Hello there
I have a baptism transcript for Thomas Dix from Bucks FHS which states " 13.11.1859 Thomas born 6 Dec 1858, Illegitimate son of Richard Hill & Elizabeth Dix of Olney, Exciseman ". The birth cert for Thomas does not state any father's name. I would like to try and trace Richard Hill if possible and wonder if there any ways to look up Excisemen. I always associate Excisemen with the coast but I expect that's not the case. Elizabeth Dix actually went on to marry someone else. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?
Thanks in advance
Pwillia133
pwillia133
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:25 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Frodo » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:24 pm

At that time Excise Men were responsible for collecting duties on items such as home made alcohol and other taxable products. They came under the same umbrella as Customs Officers but we're not confined to the coast. As far as I can tell looking on line the National Archives has information about Customs and Excise Men including some lists. It may be worth having a look to see if there are links to other information or indeed your family is mentioned
.
Frodo
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Didsbury, Manchester

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby pwillia133 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:29 pm

Thanks Frodo - I'll try that line of enquiry next.

pwillia133
pwillia133
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:25 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Hillhurst » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:40 pm

There is a chap named named Richard Lateward Taylor Hill. Born c1835 in Tamworth, Staffs. He was a career Inland Revenue man who travelled throughout England and Scotland from 1861 until his death in 1895 in Yorkshire.

In 1861, he was lodging with George Roger (distillery cooper) and his family in Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Richard's occupation: Officer of Inland Revenue.

He married a Janet Hill in London in January 1863. The marriage image is on Ancestry. At the time, he was living in Wandsworth, Surrey.

Interestingly, several of the eldest Hill children were born in Newport Pagnell, Bucks. Which is very near to Olney, where your chap was born. Perhaps Richard Hill's line of work took him to that area now and again.

In 1881, he and the family are living in Bilston, Staffs. Occupation: Supervisor of Inland Revenue Excise Branch.

Richard Hill is fairly easy to follow on Ancestry. He's either listed as Richard L T Hill, or by his full name. Which is often mis-transcribed.
Hillhurst
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby pwillia133 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:22 pm

Thanks very much Hillhurst for all that information ! It certainly looks like he could be the one taking into account the birth of some of his children being born in Newport Pagnell. I'm going onto Ancestry later this evening so this will be my project for tonight !
Thanks again
Pwillia133
pwillia133
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:25 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Hillhurst » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:01 pm

On FMP, there is a record for Richard L T Hill in the "British Civil Service Evidence of Age" collection. The 4-page document is dated December 1856 and includes his Tamworth baptism record. He was a miller by trade. The FMP record ties in with his 1857 civil servant appointment.

As Frodo mentioned, TNA at Kew hold records for Excise & Inland Revenue Officers. Perhaps TNA hold documents for Richard L T Hill, which would confirm his work location circa 1858-1860 (when your chap was born). Here is the TNA link for more info:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hel ... -officers/

UPDATE: There is a TNA record for his "entry papers" (1857) -- but it's not available online. You'd have to view it at the TNA, or request a copy. See link below:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... r/C9972356

As the record is dated 1857, it probably doesn't include his work location(s) for 1858-1859. But TNA may have other records for him (post-1857).
Hillhurst
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby pwillia133 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:51 am

Good morning Hillhurst.
Thanks very much for all that information you've found out and the links! I think I'll start with the FMP record and then the TNA for the copy of the entry papers when I go back on tonight. I've loaded quite a few records now on my tree on Ancestry and you may be interested to know that he was born only about 10 miles from where I live now. Just a coincidence as my mother's family all originate from Northants, Bucks and Cambs.

I was interested to see that the girl he eventually married in London put her address as Somerset House. So I'll be interested to see what Somerset House was in those days.

Thanks for your help - it's much appreciated !

Pwillia133
pwillia133
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:25 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Hillhurst » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:53 pm

pwillia133 wrote:...the girl he eventually married in London put her address as Somerset House. So I'll be interested to see what Somerset House was in those days.

You'll know Somerset House! :-) Anyone who does UK family history should be familiar with it. From 1837 until 1970, the GRO held an office in the North Wing of Somerset House. This was the office that held all birth, marriage and death certificates in England and Wales until 1970.

Jane's father, Thomas Hill, was the Officer Keeper at the GRO (as per the 1851 and 1861 census). He'd also been an Inland Revenue Officer, according to his son's marriage record.

The Excise Office, Inland Revenue, and the Principal Registry of the Court of Probate also had offices at Somerset House at the time.

So presumably, Richard L T Hill could have met Jane Hill at Somerset House. Unless Richard is related to Jane's father, which would make sense, as both men were from Tamworth.
Hillhurst
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby pwillia133 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:31 pm

Hello Hillhurst.
Yes I did know that Somerset House was the Record Office until the 70's but I just thought it was an office not a 'House' and that's why I was surprised that people were living there. I've now looked into the history of Somerset House and it makes interesting reading. Always something new to learn !

On the 1861 census showing Janet at Somerset House with her family and showing her father's occupation as Office Keeper, the others on that page were also Office Keepers so I'm presuming that that occupation must have had accommodation included.

I think you may be right about the fathers of the bride and groom being related.

I've got a list of things to look up and would dearly like to crack on but unfortunately my time isn't always my own ! I will try and get something done later tonight.

Thanks again
Pwillia133
pwillia133
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:25 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Hillhurst » Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:45 pm

My grandfather worked at Somerset House during WW2. He was with the Ministry of Supply, which took the Inland Revenue's place there, after they briefly moved out of Somerset House.

I believe there were apartments at Somerset House, which were available to the on-site Office Keepers. For example: the apartment available to the Office Keeper for the GRO consisted of 2 sitting rooms and 3 bedrooms. Other apartments offered a similar amount of rooms (if not more) plus a kitchen.

Haven't worked out yet what happened to Richard L T Hill's parents. I think his mother's maiden name was Proudman. Richard is living with the Proudman family in the 1841 census in Tamworth. And he might be the teenage Richard Hill (clerk) who is lodging with a family in Birmingham in the 1851 census.

UPDATE: Richard Hill snr died 1836/1837. His 1837 will (with images) is on FMP. He mentions his father, Thomas Hill (gentleman), of Drayton Bassett, Staffs.
He also mentions his wife Mary Anne, and son Richard L T Hill. Also mentioned is Richard snr's brother, John Hill (butcher) of Tamworth. Not sure when Mary Anne Hill died.

Now here's Richard L T Hill's connection to the Janet's father, Thomas Hill, who works at Somerset House:
Janet's father is the second son of Thomas Hill, gentleman. This is confirmed in Thomas Hill snr's 1849 will. So that makes Richard L T Hill and Janet Hill cousins.
Also noted in the 1849 will is a Richard Lateward Taylor (brother-in-law of Thomas Hill snr, gentleman). So he would be Richard L T Hill's great-uncle and namesake.

Based on Thomas Hill snr's 1849 will, it sounds like the Hill's were a rather prominent family in Staffs. It'll be interesting if your Dix chap is a Hill descendant. :wink:
Hillhurst
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Hillhurst » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:29 pm

So Thomas Hill, snr (gentleman of Drayton Bassett) was the former agent to the Right Honourable Sir Robert Peel, Bart. :o This is confirmed in Hill's 1848 newspaper death notice. Prominent family indeed!
Hillhurst
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby pwillia133 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:06 pm

Well what a lot of information you've found out !! It's amazing - I've had to print your messages out so that I can make notes on my tree. I have Family Tree Maker and a tree on Ancestry.

I think that the marriage between Thomas Hill and Janet Hill was probably arranged between the fathers and Elizabeth Dix (who he got involved with in Olney) was considered not good enough and he was encouraged to ditch her. The illegitimate son Thomas Dix was born (1858) before he married Janet (1863).

It makes good reading with all this prominent family connection even if we are on the wrong side of the blanket as they say ! There is a statue of Sir Robert Peel in Tamworth and a hospital named after him.

Did your grandfather tell you about being at Somerset house during the war - the apartments sound very spacious.

I look forward to the next raft of discoveries - so exciting! My ancestors on my mother's side of the family were for the most part involved in the shoe industry and the women from Olney were lacemakers. My grandfather was a boot and shoe repairer and came up to Birmingham to take over his father in law's shop and stayed there. Remember it well !

(Can't seem to get the smilies to work even though it says they're ON )
pwillia133
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:25 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Hillhurst » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:07 pm

Hello - actually my grandfather died when I was 2 years old. But my granny mentioned that his MoS offices were at Somerset House during the war. Not sure if those spacious apartments existed by then. My grandfather lived in Kent and commuted to London at the time. He also worked in the War Office. (He'd been a career soldier).

As regards Thomas Dix's 1858 birth cert: what is the address listed on it? Addresses are always important and can provide additional clues.
Hillhurst
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby pwillia133 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:31 pm

Hello - the address on the birth cert of Thomas Dix is just put as Olney. No street address. No father's name on that but on the Baptism record she had obviously decided to name and shame. I'm glad she did as it's been a very interesting discovery!

She married a John Kitchener in 1862 and originally Thomas took his name but later on (eg 1939 register) he used 'Dix'. I wonder what his mother told him about his origins.

A pity your grandfather died when you were so young - I would think he would have had some interesting things to tell you about his job in WW2.

I've just started to write out ancestral charts for the Hill's . I have to set it out on paper first as it makes more sense to me (showing my age !) I'm then going to buy some credits on FMP. I found the record I wanted the other day but didn't have time to buy the credits.

Very hot here today !
pwillia133
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:25 pm

Re: Help with occupation of Exciseman

Postby Hillhurst » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:34 pm

Don't buy FMP credits just yet. I have a 90-day sub which is going to expire this month. I'm very happy to email you the FMP images for 1837 and 1849 wills, etc. Just PM me your email address and I'll send the FMP images to you. The 1849 will is so interesting! And very legible.
Hillhurst
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Next

Return to Trades & Occupations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests