ARC TBC Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

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ARC TBC Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby Tim Sargeant » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:31 pm

I refer to my earlier enquiries on the site dated August 10th 2014 and on, reference Elizabeth SARAH Humphries of Brighton. (Now archived to Locked Topic)
In the intervening time we have found an Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries with connections to an address in Montpelier Road Brighton who could be the person we have been seeking.
In April 1857 a John Laing Humphries was born at an address in Oriental Place Brighton which was a lodging house. On his birth Certificate his mother's name was given as Elizabeth Sarah Humphries but no father's name given.
However the birth was registered by John Laing 'occupier' of said address. We had always presumed him to be the father as in his will he left this child very well provided for. However we have never been able to trace the child's mother.
The said John Laing lived at No 61 Montpelier Road Brighton from early in the 1850s until his death in 1869 aged 71. Recent research has revealed that a property called 'Belvedere' further up Montpelier Road was used as a girls' school.
A pupil there at this time was one Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries. She had been born in Lambeth where her father had a pub and other property and by the the 1850s he had a pub in Southampton. She is shown in the 1851 census as
E A Humphrey aged 14 years at Belvedere, Montpelier Road Brighton, born Southampton (which was later found to be incorrect as was the spelling of the Humphrey / Humphries name) In checking the 'A' in E A Humphrey turned out to be
an S and many other errors were found in this particular transcription. (eg: The headmistress was a Miss Margaret C Wallace but transcribed as 'Wallane' etc.) So, there is absolutely no doubt that this Elizabeth Humphries would have known
our John Laing as she would have passed his house in Montpelier Road on a daily basis and therefore we have a direct connection to both the place and time. We think she is shown in subsequent censuses at; 1861 Andover, 1871 Hartley Wintney.
On 3rd April 1872 Elizabeth Sophia Humphries married George Gray at Southampton Register Office her address being given as Orchard Street Southampton, and George at John Street Kingsland Southampton.
After this the trail again goes cold; They don't seem to have had any children and on checking her birth and baptism the ages don't seem right. Elizabeth Sophia Humphries daughter of John Terry and Sarah Terry Humphries appears to have been baptised at St Mary's Lambeth on Dec 5th 1832 which doesn't tie up with her age as given in the censuses. ??? I thought I had found her death but when certificate arrived it wasn't her.
Has anyone else researched either of these people or families? I put an enquiry on Curious Fox but no responses. Any information gratefully recieved.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby grangers14 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:34 pm

Did John, Elizabeths son not live with her? If not who did he live with?
On the marriage you have with George Gray, what age was on there and fathers name?
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby Tim Sargeant » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:27 pm

Jo, Thank You so much for getting back to me so quickly.

Unfortunately John Laing Humphries was 'farmed out' and lived with a Mrs Potter and her family in Ringmer Sussex which is just to the North of Lewes. He isn't in the 1861 census for some reason unless I am missing something but appears in the 1871 as John 'Humfris' POTTER. Presumably the enumerator assumed all the children in the house were from the same family. Even so he took some finding! In 1881 he is St James's Street Brighton with his own shop.

Elizabeth S Humphries marriage certificate of 3rd April 1872 gives us George Gray as 46 years and father's name John Gray deceased. Elizabeth's father is John Terry Humphries also deceased. (I do know a little about that family) Her mother was JTH's second wife. Her age is given as 35 which gives a birth date of 1836/7. She isn't on BMDs. I can only think that possibly the Lambeth baptism date is another transcription error although it is difficult to make 1836 or 7 into 1832 and if December 1837 she would be on BMDs. The 'Terry' in the Humphries name is from an earlier surname carried down.

As you appreciate I only put the 'bare bones' in my above posting! Have you read the 2014 postings re Elizabeth 'Sarah' Humphries? You might glean a little more from that.
Kind Regards, TCS.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby grangers14 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:07 pm

What occupations are given to all on the marriage cert and was George married before? Witnesses?
I had read the other thread. Looking at the census 1851, it does look like E A and not E S. Could easily be a mistake though.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby Tim Sargeant » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:33 pm

George Gray is down as a Bachelor aged 46, occupation Labourer, and his father John Gray is also a Labourer. I am not convinced he was a bachelor.
Elizabeth S H is aged 35 years, a spinster and has no occupation. Father's occupation Publican. Somewhere I have the name of his pub.
Witnesses; We have X the mark of Mary Ann TREE and Joseph GAILOR. I am fairly sure about these although the writing is not all it might be as with old certs.
TCS.
(PS:We also have 'Humphreys, John, son of Elizabeth Sarah' baptised 28th March 1858 address given as Grosvenor Street Brighton. Presume this is the same John.)
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby grangers14 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:04 am

Could this be them?
1871. John Street, St Mary, Southampton
George Gray, lodger, u, 50, labourer, Eling

1881. 22 Chapel Street, St Mary Southampton
George Gray, head, 62, Labourer, Eling
Elizabeth Gray, wife, 45, Lambeth, Surrey
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby grangers14 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:15 am

13th June 1835. St John the Evangelist, Lambeth Surrey
Elizabeth Sarah Humphreys
Parents, Thomas and Sarah Humphreys, Waterloo Road, Gas Fitter


5th December 1832. Lambeth Surrey
Elizabeth Sophia Humphries
Parents, John and Sarah Terry Humphries
Last edited by grangers14 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby Tim Sargeant » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:08 pm

I'm sorry not to have got back to you sooner;
There seems to be a problem with this machine.
I typed out a full reply and it just disappeared!
I haven't time to re-do it now but will try again later.
Regards for now, Tim.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby grangers14 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:10 pm

Oh I wonder if you saved it to draft?

Seems some things are wrong...names etc. To be honest I do not think that is your John in the 1871 census, see there is a Henry Humphries too? Births are to mothers maiden name as Toogood and a possible John registered as Toogood but mothers maiden name as Potter?

Marriage. Sep 1856 E Grinstead
Thomas Potter
Frances Naomi Toogood

1861. Lewis Street, Brighton
Joseph Potter, head, 36, Butcher, Bramber
Frances N Potter, wife, 29, Carisbrooke, Isle of Wight
Eliza Potter, daur, 2, Brighton
Joseph Potter, son, 4, Brighton

1871. Ringmer Road, Ringmer, Lewes
John Body, head, U, 48, Carpenter,
Thomas Potter, Boarder, 47, ? Proprietor, Bramber
Frances Naomi, Boarder, 39, Laundress, Carisbrooke Isle of Wight
John Humphries Potter, 14, Brighton
Ellen Elizabeth Potter , boarder, 12, Brighton
Henry Humphries Potter, boarder, 9,
Thomas Walter Potter, boarder, 5,
Edith Louisa Potter, boarder, 10 months?
Others born Ringmer


1881 Frances was still living in the same household of John Body as housekeeper and widow.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby Tim Sargeant » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:36 am

Good morning Jo if you're there,
Just got back on line. Sorry for the delay in responding after problem with computer seizing up. And, no, it didn't get saved to drafts! Unfortunately.
I will respond more fully to yours of Saturday later. I have to go out this morning.In the meantime many thanks for your interest in this matter.
Tim.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby Tim Sargeant » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:33 pm

Hallo Jo,
As far as John 'Humphris' (Potter) at Ringmer in 1871 census is concerned, he is definitely OUR John Humphries. He seems to have been quite close to one of Mrs Potter's daughters who emigrated to America and there is a letter over there from him to this girl who he regarded almost as a sister which confirms this.
It also seems that the 'Joseph' Potter aged 4 years at Lewis Street Brighton in 1861 may well be him too as he was born on 11th April 1857. Census was taken on 7th April so he would have just about been 4 years minus a day or so, and the Potters did not have any of their own children of this age.
The 'Joseph' Potter aged 36 is obviously an error too; Thomas Potter was approximately 36 and Frances was HIS wife, not 'Joseph's' whoever he might have been?
Furtheremore we also have John Laing's will which refers to John Humphries 'residing with Mrs Potter'. And with only that to go on she did take some finding!
We did know of the Lewes Street |Brighton address as at least one of the Potter children was born there. The rest born Ringmer, ie; Lewes registration district.
Thomas Potter and Frances Naomi Toogood married at Forest Row near East Grinstead on 27th July 1856. Thomas was at that time a butler at Knockhill (House) nearby.
I would suggest that his occupation of 'butcher' in the 1861 census has been mistranscribed or misread and should actually be 'butler'.
Whe they were living with John Body Thomas Potter's occupation should be 'fly proprietor'. a 'fly' was the minicab of the 1800s!
Most of the deceased Potters are in Ringmer churchyard along with John Body.
I was told that some pages from the Brighton census for 1861 are missing or destroyed which is why I have been unable to trace John Laing Humphries at that time. It is of note also that John Laing was of Scottish extraction although he was actually born in Jamaica where his father had a half share in a coffee plantation. In Scotland it was a teadition that illegitimate children would be given the father's surname as a middle name. The Laings came from Newton near Edinburgh and we have been there.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby Tim Sargeant » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:46 pm

To John Humphries' mother; She is down on the birth certificate as Elizabeth Sarah Humphries. However we have not been able to trace her, any likely candidates were not in Brighton at the time. This is why we have the Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries from Southampton who is known to have been in Brighton at the right time and of the right age. There is no doubt she must have known John Laing due to the closeness of their respective addresses. John Laing registered the birth of the child but father's name and occupation are left blank on the certificate. There may well be a good reason for him putting down Sarah as the mother's second name as he later married one Marian SARAH Turrell. We also know of a previous connection with the address at 24 Oriental Place Brighton where the child was born. John Laing had earlier stayed at this address with his younger brother David who was a well-known C of E clergyman. So there would have been a certain amount of secrecy about the whole business.
It was often the case that illegitimate children would be 'farmed out' with a family friend, elder sister, or relative who was married and had children so an extra child could be easily explained. This is whe we had a particular interest in Frances Toogood who came from Carisbrooke on the Isle of Wight. There MUST have been a connection with her and the child's mother although we have yet to find it.
I will let you ponder on all this. Many Thanks for your interest. Tim Sargeant.
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Re: Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries

Postby BC Wench » Wed May 08, 2019 9:38 am

Is this still a Brickwall, or have you solved it?

Unless otherwise advised this will be moved to the Brickwalls Archived section
within 24 hours
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