Searching for my grandmother's birth record

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Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby PascalePC » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:56 pm

Hello :)

This is a rather long message - apologies in advance, but I'm trying to make sure I cover everything up to now. If anyone has any idea where to go with this, I'd be really grateful :)

So I'm looking for my grandmother, Margaret Jones’ birth record. She found out later on in her life that the father she grew up with and had the surname of, was not her birth father. The man she grew up with was called Reginald Wyndham Jones (born in Hull 01/05/1905).

Margaret grew up as Margaret Jones in Portsmouth and was apparently born in Hull 31/12/1923. She died in 1985 in Portsmouth.

Her mother was called Hilda Hardwick and was born 08/05/1902 in Worcester (I have her birth certificate and death certificate). In the 1939 census, Reginald, Hilda and Margaret were living in Portsmouth. Margaret then married my french grandfather Roger Feat in 1945 in Portsmouth. Reginald is on their marriage certificate as the father. She divorced my grandfather and later remarried to a man called Fred Thorne (so she died Margaret Thorne, I have her death cert).

There is no birth record of Margaret Jones or Margaret Hardwick born in Hull 31/12/1923. Or anywhere in England, for that matter.

My family have no idea of the details around Margaret's birth father and her birth.

The birth father's surname may be on Margaret's birth certificate. Margaret had no middle name - but there is always the possibility that there could be a different christian name on her birth record.

If Margaret was born as an illegitimate child, I'm guessing the birth might have been kept very hush hush. There was a move from Worcester to Hull at some point before Margaret's birth. I think Hilda's father died while she was pregnant with Margaret and her mum died when she was 11. Hilda was the youngest of 12 children. Margaret was Hilda’s only child.

Hilda’s DOB on the 1939 register is wrong by one year. I think I have eventually found her marriage to Reginald though, with Reginald using the surname Sollars. I was advised to order the marriage certificate of the entry I found if it showed Reginald’s father as George. It was and the certificate was sent to me. It certainly looks like them, with Hilda calling herself 20 years old there instead of 22. I think at the time they married they had a lot to hide. I’m baffled at why Reginald would use a different surname though.

Hilda and Reginald’s marriage certificate info:

1925. Marriage solemnised at the Parish Church in the Parish of St Paul, Sculcoates in the County of Kingston upon Hull
Column no. 174 (or 194)
Date: February 9th (I think 9th, writing is scruffy) 1925.
Name and Surname: Reginald Wyndham Sollars. Age 19. Bachelor. Rank or profession - Pattern Maker. Residence at the time of Marriage: 6, Reed Street. Father’s name and surname: George Edward Sollars. Rank or profession of Father: Marine Engineer.
Name and Surname: Hilda Hardwick. Age 20. Spinster. No rank/prefession. Residence at the time of Marriage: 6, Reed Street. Father’s name and surname: William Henry Hardwick. Rank or profession of Father: Deceased.
This marriage was solemnised between us, Reginald Wyndham Sollars / Hilda Hardwick. In the presence of us, Thomas Frederick Barton/ Kate Annie (unreadable surname)

Hilda’s father is indeed William Henry Hardwick and I had previously found a record of what looks like his death in 1923 (just before or during Hilda’s pregnancy with Margaret), which fits with it saying deceased on the certificate.
Reginald’s father, George Jones’s profession in the 1911 census is Marine Stoker (Marine Engineer on this certificate)
They were obviously living ‘in sin’ before their marriage (they have the same address)

Census/electoral roll-wise, I think Reginald Wyndham Jones seems to be in the following entries:

1911 census.
10 Henry Terrace West Parade, Holy Trinity, Hull, Yorkshire
George Jones 48
Margaret Jones 34
William Jones 7
Wyndham Jones 5

1927 electoral roll.
21, Caroline Place, Hull, Yorkshire
Emily Dixon
John Crowley
James Witting
Annie Witting
Whyndham Reginald Jones

1929 electoral roll.
21, Caroline Place, Hull, Yorkshire
Emily Dixon
John Crowley
Whyndham Reginald Jones
Hilda Jones

1930 electoral roll.
21, Caroline Place, Hull, Yorkshire
Emily Dixon
John Crowley
Whyndham Reginald Jones
Hilda Jones

1931 electoral roll.
24, Saint Luke’s Street, Hull, Yorkshire
George Jones
Margaret Jones
William Arthur Jones
Reginald Wyndham Jones
Hilda Jones

I have checked with the GRO for adoption records in case Reginald adopted Margaret with no results, but records only started after 1927 anyway. I called the GRO and checked Margaret Sedgwick and Margaret Clark in Yorkshire whose mother’s name was Hardwick. No results for the DOB as 31/12/1923.

Does anyone have any idea how to find my grandmother, Margaret? I have reached a mega brick wall!!!!
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby SRD » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:20 am

A minor point, that you have touched on but don't seem to have followed up, that birth date of the last day of the year looks a little iffy to me, especially as the year seems to be in doubt at times, I'd be spreading the search wider than December 1923. A needle in a haystack I agree but you're obviously into the rigours of these searches.
Currently investigating the Hillmans of Sussex.
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby PascalePC » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:55 am

Thank you, SRD. I know what you mean - 31/12/1923 does look a bit weird! With so many variables though, I'm not sure anything would define a birth record for Margaret? Was she even born in Hull? Hilda was from Worcester but there is no record for her between the 1911 census when she was living in Worcester with her parents and then possibly 1927 when she appears to move in with Reginald/Wyndham, who was not Margaret's biological father, in Hull. It is so frustrating to have birth, death and marriage records of Hilda and Reginald, but to be so totally stuck...

So her DOB might not be 31/12/1923. Her passport (which my living uncle can't find) had 31/12/1923 on, as did her french citizen card.
Her place of birth said Hull on her passport and french citizen card. But maybe she wasn't born in Hull at all?
Her christian name was Margaret and she didn't have a middle name, but perhaps the name Margaret might not be on her birth record.
She might have her biological father's surname on her birth record.

One thing to note, Hilda was actually called Vivian by Reginald, Margaret and my uncle and dad. On Margaret's french citizen card, her mother is named there as Vivian Hardwicke, rather than Hilda Hardwick.

So confused! :(
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby PascalePC » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:34 am

I searched Findmypast without a region for:

Margaret Jones
1923 (+/- 2yrs)
Mother's Maiden Name Hardwick

And got:

EDITH M JONES
Q4 1923 (+/- 2yrs)
Mother's last name Hardwick
Rhayader, Radnorshire, Wales
Volume 11B, Page 196

Then:

Margaret Hardwick
1923 (+/- 2yrs)
Mother's Maiden Name Hardwick

And got:

BARBARA M HARDWICKE
Q4 1922
Mother's last name Hardwicke
Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
Volume 11A, Page 707

I’m a genealogy novice and am totally confused, if I’m honest! Should I try to rule the above births out? If so, how? I can’t see records for Hilda or Reginald in Wales at that time, but I can’t see records of them anywhere at that time. Maybe a pregnant Hilda went to stay with a relative when her father passed away in 1922/1923?

I think Hilda and Reginald may have told Reginald's family that Margaret was a year younger to make it look like Margaret was his. The name Margaret may have been thought of after her birth to fit in with Reginald's mother being called Margaret. It looks like they also said Hilda was younger, judging by their strange marriage record.

I wish I was a detective!
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:14 am

What age is Margaret on the marriage certifs for her
does it check out to 1923?

Births Dec 1923
Cork Margaret L Hardwick King's N. 6d 250
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby PascalePC » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:26 am

Hi Northern Lass, thanks for your message. The marriage certificate for Margaret and my grandfather, Roger Jean Féat, says she was age 21 on her wedding day (23/03/1945).

Thank you for finding that record. Shall I check with the GRO to see if Margaret L Cork, mother's maiden name Hardwick, born in King's N had the DOB as 31/12/1923?
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:28 am

PascalePC wrote:Hi Northern Lass, thanks for your message. The marriage certificate for Margaret and my grandfather, Roger Jean Féat, says she was age 21 on her wedding day (23/03/1945).

Thank you for finding that record. Shall I check with the GRO to see if Margaret L Cork, mother's maiden name Hardwick, born in King's N had the DOB as 31/12/1923?


They won't give you that info you would have to buy certif.
I would hold back on spending any dosh at mo see what we can help with.
some good detectives on here.... :wink:

Pascale have you got margarets baptism or christening record.
On her death certif did it give the dob for her?

oh and what did the other marriage give as dob was she married twice?
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:36 am

Can someone find them on the 1939 find my past info
what age is margaret on there?
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby PascalePC » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:48 am

Northern Lass wrote:Pascale have you got margarets baptism or christening record.
On her death certif did it give the dob for her?
oh and what did the other marriage give as dob was she married twice?


No I don't have a baptism or christening record. I haven't ordered her death certificate, but I will now! And I’ll update this thread when I get it.

I just looked and can’t seem to find her second marriage record - to Fred Thorne - however! - this one looks like it could be them but Margaret’s surname there is Ingram!

FREDERICK J THORNE
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1981
MarriageFinder™ FREDERICK J THORNE married Margaret Ingram
Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Volume 20, Page 0615

My uncle told me they got married a few years before she died in 1985. They lived in Portsmouth. She died in Portsmouth. But Ingram?!

Northern Lass wrote:Can someone find them on the 1939 find my past info
what age is margaret on there?


On the 1939 register she was living in Portsmouth with Reginald and Hilda. It has her DOB there as 31 Dec 1923.

Thank you :)
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:51 am

See I think that is her dob
and her name could well be a margaret.

I think on the death certifs after 1965 ish they put down dob
so should be on the death info on ancestry if someone can have a look.

which church would be the likely one for a bapt if she was bapt in Hull?
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:05 am

Marriages Dec 1981
INGRAM MARGARET THORNE PORTSMOUTH 20 615

Births Mar 1924
Sedgwick Margaret Hardwick Sheffield 9c 956
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:13 am

When did she divorce?
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby PascalePC » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:15 am

Northern Lass wrote:See I think that is her dob
and her name could well be a margaret.
I think on the death certifs after 1965 ish they put down dob
so should be on the death info on ancestry if someone can have a look.
which church would be the likely one for a bapt if she was bapt in Hull?


It looks like Hilda and Reginald were married in this church in 1925: https://www.achurchnearyou.com/sculcoates-st-paul/ I think that is the only church that has popped up while researching this.

Oh! - on Margaret's death record on Findmypast, it says:

MARGARET THORNE
Birth day 31
Birth month 12
Birth year 1923 Q2
Death year 1985
Portsmouth, Register number 485
Volume 20, Page 576

Northern Lass wrote:Marriages Dec 1981
INGRAM MARGARET THORNE PORTSMOUTH 20 615

Births Mar 1924
Sedgwick Margaret Hardwick Sheffield 9c 956


I already checked with GRO re Margaret Sedgwick - I was refunded as the DOB didn't match 31/12/1923.

Northern Lass wrote:When did she divorce?


She divorced Roger Jean Féat 02/06/1965
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:25 am

sorry I meant which churches did Margaret marry in.
sometimes they get bapt in church they later marry in.

So we have her marrying a Fred thorne in 1981 Portsmouth as Ingram...strange.

so did you say you don't have this marriage info?

wonder if it is viewable anywhere.

why Ingram on that marriage.

so she divorces in 1965....

So marries for first time in 1945 to Feat....and then divorces in 1965 and in 1981 is down as Margaret Ingram for that marriage.

:shock:

need the big guns on this....

step up you lot lurking ....help us out.... :(
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Re: Searching for my grandmother's birth record

Postby PascalePC » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:26 am

Ooooh!!

She married after divorcing my grandfather, Roger Féat.

MARGARET FEAT
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1967
MarriageFinder™ MARGARET FEAT married Frederick H Ingram
Gosport, Hampshire
Volume 6B, Page 710

Do you think it would be worth me getting:

Margaret's death cert (to see what her maiden name is recorded as?)
Margaret's marriage certificate to Fred Ingram
Margaret's marriage certificate to Fred Thorne
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