Genealogy Forum UK

I wonder if anyone who could help me with this intriguing story. I'm sorry it is lengthy! I want to see if I can solve the riddle of my grandmother’s paternity so will share what I do know ……..

My maternal grandmother, Kathleen Bick, was born on 6th June 1914 in Hole-in-the-Wall, Herefordshire to Alice Bick and ? Alice herself came originally from Brampton Abbotts which is very close by and had a maiden name of Goode.

Alice gave birth to Kathleen on her own. Kathleen wasn't registered and never had a birth certificate...I have looked! My mum, Kathleen's daughter, was always told her mum was illegitimate.

Now a bit about Alice. Alice married George Bick in 1899 in Foy church. Alice and George had two daughters together. I can follow their story with marriage and birth certificates confirming their marriage and parentage of the two girls. Alice in 1911 had a baby boy, little George, who died in 1912 at just over a year old. Again little George’s certificate confirms his parentage to Alice and George.

Plain sailing…..so far.

In around September 1913, going by Kathleen's birth date, Alice falls pregnant with my grandmother Kathleen. In January 1914, George is admitted into Burghill Mental Asylum after showing violence towards Alice. Kathleen is born in June 1914 and in January 1916 George dies from insanity. It is possible that George could be Kathleen's father, however....

If this is the case - why didn't Alice give Kathleen a birth certificate like her sisters? Would the embarrassment of putting her husband's occupation as “in a mental asylum” have been too much and to say she was illegitimate be the favourable option??!!! I ask the question because the more experienced amongst you would know these things!

In September 1917 Alice re-marries a David Waters. If Kathleen is his daughter, she never takes his surname but I appreciate that couldn't happen until 1926 when the Adoption Act came into being…..if indeed he was her father instead?

My mum has always thought David was Kathleen’s father. I'm not sure what to think.

What do other members think of this story. I appreciate some things just have to stay in the past! Has anyone else experienced anything similar in their research?

From reading an article in the "brick walls section", have now found that a law in 1928 meant you could apply for a birth certificate if father was happy to admit paternity? If that's the case....she can't be David's? Why would they not get her a certificate if she was their daughter otherwise

I'll stick my head above the parapet and say, whilst everything you say is a possible explanation of the events it is just surmise and genealogists aren't supposed to make unsupported suppositions.

One thing that sticks out to me is that the whole thing relies on accepting the accuracy of what was said about Kathleen's birth, including dates etc.

I understood that not registering a birth was quite a serious offence and would have required the connivance of several authorities (mid-wives, doctors etc.) or by the parent(s) moving around a lot. So I would look to see if I could find a suitable birth in wider time parameters and possibly registered to other family members, occasionally a birth would be registered to a mother or sister of the actual mother to avoid scandal.

Is it possible that the trigger for George's 'insanity' was discovering his wife's infidelity? Actually it's unusual to die of 'insanity', that was possibly used to cover other things, STD, suicide etc. Remember at that time unmarried mothers were still being placed in asylums simply for being pregnant. But there I go, committing the sin of supposition.

Oh my goodness maybe I should look at the whole thing differently. A baptismal record is something I haven't thought about....? Would that mean asking all the churches around Hole-in-the-Wall or is there a baptismal register somewhere?

Gosh I feel like I really don't know where to start again now?

SRD you have given me something to think about! On George's certificate it says "general paralysis of the insane" and aeortic disease. Yet his records at Burghill say died of "insanity"......

Did Kathleen have a middle name.?

Hi Jimmy

A middle name was never mentioned.

sophiewilliams wrote:My maternal grandmother, Kathleen Bick, was born on 6th June 1914 in Hole-in-the-Wall, Herefordshire to Alice Bick and ? Alice herself came originally from Brampton Abbotts which is very close by and had a maiden name of Goode.

Where did you get the date of birth from, who did Kathleen marry, and when did she die.?

Hi Jimmy

Kathleen married a George Barrett in 1952. The marriage certificate shows a line under father and father's occupation so no joy there.

As for her birth year... her school admission records show she was admitted as a four and a half year old which confirms her 1914 birth? There has always been a two year discrepancy because all through her life she always thought she was two years older because of lying about her age to get into service!

My mum tells me that Kathleen eventually got a passport through somebody confirming they had known her for the first five years of her life again confirming the lack of birth certificate.

A strange thing though....when Kathleen saw her passport she was surprised to see she was two years younger than she had always thought she was, she had convinced herself so much over the years that what she had told her employer was true!

She died in 1970 from breast cancer

I can see Georges birth on free bmd

cant see the 2 girls what are there names and dob ?

Which church did Alice marry at ....on both marriages

she may have bapt kids there.

and where is George buried?

might get lucky with all the bapts in one place............if she bapt them.

Alice married at Foy church in 1899, First daughter Ada baptised in Brampton Abbotts, second daughter Alice May in Abergavenny, where they lived at that time. Baby George baptised in Marstow near Ross. Alice's second marriage in Ross Registry Office. Kathleen born at Hole in Wall. Alice was living in Marstow at time of being pregnant, know this from first husband George's admission address into Burghill, Jan 1914, can only assume she went to live back with relatives to have Kathleen as she grew up in Foy/Brampton Abbotts/Hole-in-the-Wall area as a little girl and was christened in Brampton Abbotts herself.

Ada August 1900, Alice May 1905 Abergavenny.

????

Deaths Mar 1957
WATERS Alice - 80yrs - Herefored 9a 18

Then on the 1939 National Register there's this:-

1939 Register ChapmanHousehold
Ross-on-Wye U.D., Herefordshire, England
Alice Waters 1876
May E Chapman and 4 more people are on this record
3 more people who are officially closed

Then I did a search for May E Chapman (above) and found this:-

1939 Register Chapman Household
Ross-on-Wye U.D., Herefordshire, England
May E Chapman 1914
Kathleen (B) Woolf and 4 more people are on this record
3 more people who are officially closed

Then I searched for Kathleen (B) Woolf and found this:-

1939 Register Chapman Household
Ross-on-Wye U.D., Herefordshire, England
Kathleen (B) Woolf 1912
May E Chapman and 4 more people are on this record
3 more people who are officially closed

Could this be Kathleen? I'm subscribed to FMP but I won't have access to the 1939 Register until Tuesday when it becomes available as part of the FMP subscription.

Hello BC Wench

Yes Alice seemed to be in a house full of ladies. Kathleen went into service in WW2 with the ATS so she won't be on the register. Another interesting thing is, David Waters by this time is on the register as living in the public assistance institution in Ross. The story goes that Alice threw him out though nobody knows why?!

When Kathleen was stationed in Norwich she met an American soldier .....my mum was the result,........