*Archive?* Thomas Howlett Warren

[jschelleng]

I have the following information about a THOMAS HOWLETT WARREN. Actually, I have a number of items about a THW, and I am assuming that it is all about the same man as so many facts check, but I admit that I am not certain of the connections

He married Lucy Tidmarsh on 28 Nov 1792 in Saint Marylebone, London.

They had a son, also named THOMAS HOWLETT WARREN on 11 Aug 1793, who was christened at St. Mary's church, Marylebone, 8 SEP 1793

They had another son, CHARLES on 11 JUL 1797, who was christened at Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London on 20 AUG 1797

They had a third son, JOSEPH on 20 MAR 1804, christened at Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, on 15 APR 1804.

My interest is that I believe that CHARLES may have been my great-great-grandfather. He was indeed born in 1797, and in the 1741 census lived with his family in the same house as the family of a JOSEPH WARREN, who was indeed born in 1804. I am theorizing that CHARLES and JOSEPH are brothers and indeed the sons of THOMAS HOWLETT and LUCY WARREN. They are the only pair I can find with the right names, dates and parents. CHARLES, an artist was married to a Caroline (I have not found a marriage record) and had a daughter CAROLINE LUCY (my great-grandmother) on 30 Dec 1831, christened at St. Luke, Chelsea on 10 FEB 1832. The census also indicates that they had a son CHARLES born 1824 and another son ALFRED born 1837 (I have found no birth records for either). I am ordering the marriage records of CHARLES SR. and CAROLINE SR. and the birth record of CAROLINE JR.

Incidentally, family "myth" also indicates that CHARLES had another brother HENRY, (who became the artist SIR HENRY WARREN) born about 1794. No record. May be only myth.

If anyone has any other information that would help tie this theory together (or blow it apart) I would greatly appreciate it.

John H. Schelleng

[gardener]

Hi

I found these marriage allegations and add them in case you don't have them

13 July, 1759. Thomas Howlett Warren of the Hamlet of Kew,
Parish of Kingston, abode several years, Gent., bachelor, 25, and
Elizabeth Stringer of the Village of Richmond, abode several years,
spinster, 21 ; at Chapel of Kew. George Warren of Kew, carpenter,
2nd s. Both sign.

29 May, 1759. George Warren of the Hamlet of Kew, Parish of
Kingston, abode several years, carjsenter, bachelor, 25, and Anne
Stringer of the Village of Richmond, abode several years, spinster,
21 ; at the Church, alias Chappel, of Richmond. Thomas Howlett
Warren of Kew, Gent., 2nd s. Both sign.

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/e ... -rru.shtml

Then I checked the National Archives site for wills with surname Warren and place Kew:

Ann Warren widow carpenter of Kew Green 1784 Widow of George? Or a mother?
Thomas Howlett Warren of Kew Green 1777
Ann Warren spinster of Kew Green 1769
Elizabeth Warren widow of Kew Green 1766

I know these are a bit older than the ones you are looking at but perhaps Thomas names his children? Then you could track them down and see who they married. Perhaps find other wills (though they will soon run away with your money)
I had a quick look too for Warren + Westminster and there is William Warren, St Anne Soho 1795, wonder if he ties in?

[MarkCDodd]

There is this marriage..

Groom's Name: Charles Warren
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Caroline Warren
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 25 Aug 1830
Marriage Place: St. Mary'S, Lambeth, Surrey, England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03345-5
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1041667
Reference Number: item 1 p 219

Looking at the parish register, it does not mention the occupation of the groom.

Witness look like G. (or C.) Warren and M.E. Warren.

Both bride and groom signed the register.

It says he is a Bachelor which doesn't fit in with a son being born in 1824.

It was by Banns so if you can find them it might mention his occupation....

[MarkCDodd]

Lucy also had a brother Edwin Thomas.

Name: Edwin Thos. Warren
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 02 Feb 1834
Baptism/Christening Place: Chelsea, Middlesex, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Charles Warren
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Caroline Warren
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04174-0
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 2214587
Reference Number: 143

He died young and was buried on the 7th April 1834. The parish register doesn't say anything else about his death....

On the page before Edwin Thomas' baptism, there is one for a Margaret Christini Warren to a Joseph and Charlotte baptised 13th Feb 1833.

Joseph is a Musician so appears to be the same one in the 1841 census who is also a musician married to a Charlotte.

Margaret does not appear on the 1841 census so probably died young as well.

Joseph is living in Wood Street according to the register whilst Charles is living in Oxford Street.

[jschelleng]

Thank you all for the information, although it still doesn't solve my principle questions, i.e. were g-g-grandfather Charles Warren and his housemate in 1841 Joseph Warren indeed brothers and where they indeed the the sons of Thomas Howlett and Lucy Warren. The only record I have that I am quite sure of is Caroline Warren's (Jr.) birth in 1831, and perhaps her birth record could give me more information about her parents and name some godparents, but as it is before 1837 it is not available from the GRO. Viewing the parish record in Chelsea is a bit difficult from Virginia.

It is interesting knowing that Charles and Caroline (Sr.) had a fourth child. Two weeks ago the only child I knew about was my great grandmother Caroline. I had found the 1830 marriage records for a Charles and Caroline myself, but as you say, it doesn't mesh with the existance of Charles (Jr.)

The Thomas Howlett mentioned in you posts may indeed have been a generation before the one I was seeking. The family does seem to have a tradition of passing the name down.

Thanks again.

John Schelleng

[snoopysue]

Don't dismiss either the marriage or the birth of Charles totally.
I have a couple who married seven years after the birth of their first child, they had three children by the time they got married. The mother was already using her "partners" name, and reading the first birth certificates I assumed they were already married. It took me nearly six months to track down their wedding! The children were all baptised about 6 months before the marriage, not at the same church, but one within the same town - I suspect the vicar insisted as only 2 of their subsequent flock of 11 children were baptised! I've been told this wasn't as unusual as we might think - people got married when they had the time!

[linell]

You need to join the London Rootsweb List here is the link:-

http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/inde ... ONDON.html

They have resources such as Parish Registers and are local to do any searches etc.

Linell.

[jschelleng]

Thank you all again. The information is indeed interesting. I have found one other fact supporting, but not proving, my supposition that CHARLES and JOSEPH were sons of THOMAS HOWLETT and LUCY WARREN. The 1851 census gives peoples birthplaces and CHARLES and JOSEPH were both listed as being born in Westminster where indeed the sons of THOMAS were born (St. Ann's Soho). Now the names, birth years and birth locations are all now correct.

As to the 1830 marriage of a CHARLES WARREN and a CAROLINE WARREN. I found the actual birth certificate and the witnesses were also Warrens, but I could not make out the initials. One might be a "J" or a "T", however. The comment that people at the time often lived together for a number of years before actually marrying was interesting (not much different from today). In such cases might the bride not give not her real sir name, but the grooms, as she had been already been using it for a number of years. What were the customs of the time?

[linell]

I've always found that Ladies living with a supposed husband (sic) always used his surname. May have been different in London, my husband is from London, and his childhood was much more sophisticated than mine in the Black Country.

Linell.

[jschelleng]

They would use their "significant other's" sir nome even on their eventual wedding document? That wasn't very considerate of future genealogy researchers.

[MarkCDodd]

Very common in Colonial Australia where they may have had to wait for months for the travelling Minister/Priest/Vicar to visit.

Quite amazing how many marriages and baptisms happened on the same day

[snoopysue]

They would use their "significant other's" sir nome even on their eventual wedding document? That wasn't very considerate of future genealogy researchers.

In the case I have, she used her maiden name on the marríage certifcate, even though she'd been using her future husbands on the earlier birth certificates. Interestingly the children were all baptised 6 months before the wedding, in the same town, although not the same church!

[jschelleng]

Off on another tack.

I found an old message on another forum that referred to the family of Thomas Howlett Warren. Unfortunately I was unable to contact the writer. He stated that Joseph, the brother brother of THW the 3rd was one of his ancestor, through Joseph's daughter Ellen. Ellen's granddaughter was Marie-Thérèse van Welssenaers and lived in South Africa. He stated further that "many descendents of the Colonel William Joseph Warren settled in Capetown (South Africa), where many of them are still living today'.

I have not been able to find any information about Colonel William Joseph Warren, and don't know how he fits into the Warren family. If anyone can give me any information about him, or about the van Welssenaers, I would greatly appreciate it. Best yet would be a note for any the still existing South African Warrens.

To place me in the Warren family tree, I am the great-great-grandson of Charles Warren, who I believe (but am not certain) to be the brother of Thomas Howlett Warren and Joseph Warren. See past postings.

John Schelleng

[JACQUET PHILIPPE]

Hello,


my name is Philippe Jacquet, and I live in Belgium near Brussels. Sorry for my bad english...
I am the son of Marie-Therese Van Welssenaers, who has never lived in South Africa. She has always resided in Belgium.
My maternal grandmother's name was Mathilde Brandenburg. She was the daughter of Nicolas Clement Brandenburg and Ellen Warren, born in London July 26, 1846.
Ellen Warren was one of twelve children of Joseph Warren (brother of Thomas Howlett III) and Charlotte Hall. Joseph Warren was born in London on 20/03/1804, baptized at Westminster on 15/04/1804 and died on 03.08.1881 in Bexley. Joseph Warren, my great-great-grandfather was a great organist and composer of musics. Charlotte Hall was born on 31/08/1806 and was baptsised in Rochester (Kent). She died on 22/01/1881 in Bexley.

Joseph Warren's parents were Thomas Howlett Warren II, born about 1760 and Lucy Tidmarsh , married in Holborn (Middlesex) on 28/11/1792.

The parents of Thomas Howlett Warren II were Thomas Howlett Warren I (born in Kew, 1731) and Elisabeth Stinger.
« allegations for marriage licences issued between 1673-1770 of Eng. Diocese Commissary Court Surry" : “13 July, 1759. Thomas Howlett Warren of the Hamlet of Kew, Parish of Kingston, abode several years, Gent., bachelor, 25, and Elizabeth Stringer of the Village of Richmond, abode several years, spinster, 21 ; at Chapel of Kew. George Warren of Kew, carpenter,
2nd s. Both sign.”

Thomas Howlett Warren the first parents were George Warren and Elisabeth Howlett. Goeorge Warren was born in Kew in 1698 and died in Kew in 1755.He was a master carpenter and worked at Kew for Frederick Prince of Wales in collaboration with his wife's brother, Thomas Howlett, master bricklayer.

In his book « Palaces and Parks of Richmond and Kew – vol. II : Richmond Lodge and Kew palaces” – page 82, John Cloake wrote, about « White House » :
“…The original park had now been divided into a garden, immediately South of the house, and four closes called collectively Warren Field. There were two more closes of land in the old Tinderland Furlong, separated from the park and from each other by land that belonged to Thomas Howlett and George Harrison respectively. To the south, all the rest of the Kew Field and the top end of Parkshot was divided into 14 closes. The was also Somer’s close on the north side of the Green, two closes at “the Alders” (the old Aldey) by the Mortlake road, and some twelve acres of meadow by the riverside. By the south side of Kew Green were four houses belonging to the estate, one larger and two smaller ones grouped together by the corner of the Warren Field and one, a little further the east, in which a school has been set up and which bore the ominous name of “Hell”.
Frederick wasted little time in setting about improving his property. William Kent was employed to carry out the works on the house. If the surmise that Molyneux had recently rebuilt the Capells’ “old timber house is correct, it seems unlikely that it would have been entirely rebuilt again so soon after. However, Sir William Chambers says that both the north and south fronts were “executed from the designs of the late Mr Kent and under his inspection”; and the probably remodeled much of the interior, so it was largely new house that was completed by 1735 at the cost of over £8,000. It was plastered on the outside – and called the “White House”, in distinction from the red brick Dutch House.
The accounts for the works list individual payments to the various workmen (of masters) concerned, two of the chief of whom were Kew residents – Thomas Howlett, the master bricklayer and George Warren, the master carpenter. A few details of the work emerge from the accounts…..”

George Warren and Elisabeth Howlett had 2 sons :

- Thomas Howlett (the firts), my ancestor
- George Warren Junior also welknown as carpenter and joigner.
In his book « Palaces and Parks of Richmond and Kew – vol. II : Richmond Lodge and Kew palaces” – page 93, John Cloake write :
“…On approaching the Wilderness, the visitor would be struck by the group of exotic buildings : the Alhambra (built in 1758 as a variation of Muntz’s original design of 1750 and perhaps replacing Goupy’s Chinese arch), balanced by the Mosque (1761) on the western side, and with the great Pagoda (1761-1762), standing back in a central glade. Originally, the Pagoda had glazed tiles, and a gilded carved dragon on each of the eight points of each of the 10 tiers of roof. It was built by Solomon Brown, the Richmond bricklayer, and George Warren, the Kew carpenter, and that is still stands – 160-feet tall – is a tribute to their skill….”

I hope these informations will help you...

Kind regards,

Philippe Jacquet

[jschelleng]

Dear Mme. Jacquet

Thank you very much. Your post gives substance to much that I had only been able to surmise. I would only ask if you have any information on or recognition of Charles Warren, a third son of Thomas Howlett and Lucy Warren which according to the records was born Westminster in 1797. I am fairly convinced that this is my Great Great Grandfather. He was an artist and in the 1841 census was living in the same house as your ancestor Joseph.

John Schelleng