death cert's/ ChelseaBarracks

[becca_s]

Hi,

both my great grandfather and my great, great grandfather were solidiers. My great grandfather was William Charles Shaw b.1881 and we have heaps of his war records from Boar war and WWI. His father was also called William Shaw b. 1858 Edinburgh and a soldier too. In the 1881 census he was listed a solidier living in Chelsea Barracks, London, the same year he married Alice Louisa Rumball, he did not live for many more years as Alice went on to marry 2 more times. The problem is that so far I can't find a death certificate so I don't know when, or how he died but I am guessing that since he was a soldier he might have died in someway to do with war or the military??
Does anyone have any information on the Chelsea Barracks either? I'm from New Zealand so I might sound a bit stupid I'm not familiar with UK geology or places ... and am a bit new to this whole thing.

Thanks, Rebecca

[apowell]

Hi Rebecca,

Information on the Chelsea Barracks:

Chelsea Barracks was an Army barracks located in the City of Westminster, London, adjacent to Chelsea, on Chelsea Bridge Road. It was originally built to house two battalions of troops. It was the home of two companies of the Foot Guards: No 7 Company, Coldstream Guards; F Company, Scots Guards, 238 Signal Squadron. The four companies total about 280 troops. I think the Chelsea Barracks was built and used from the time of Charles II in the 1690's and housed the newly formed Foot Guards.

I've checked the 1881 census and we know your chap William was a private soldier of the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards and stationed at the Chelsea Barracks. I've checked the movements of the 2nd Battalion from 1881 for clues on his whereabouts:

1881-1885
Stationed in England

1885
Expedition to Suakin, Sudan, where it saw fighting at the Battle of Hasheen and gained a further battle honour before returning home, via Cyprus, in less than nine months.

late 1885-1900
Stationed England and Ireland (Dublin)

1900-1902
In 1900 the 2nd Battalion joined the 1st Battalion in South Africa at an equal strength. For the next two years it was to operate as part
of the Eighth Division, known as “Rundle’s Greyhounds,” in the general area of the town of Harrismith, against elusive Boer Commandos.

History of the Scots Guards
Active 1642-1651,
1661-present
Branch Army
Type Foot Guards
Nickname The Kiddies; Jock Guards
Motto Nemo Me Impune Lacessit (No one assails me with impunity) (Latin)
March Quick - Hielan' Laddie
Slow - The Garb of Old Gaul
Anniversaries St Andrew's Day

I would suggest you write to the Regimental Headquarters (below) with the informatiuon you have because they offer a research service but no idea on cost etc . They may have details of his death if still in service.

Scots Guards
Wellington Barracks
Birdcage Walk
London SW1E 6HQ

I've taken the above information from internet and recomend you check http://www.scotsguards.co.uk for further information.

When did William's wife remarry because that would give you an idea when William died.

William may moved between Regiments but I wouldn't have thought likely so it looks like he stayed with the Scots Guards and would have seen action in the Egypt campaign. If so he would have been entitled to the Egypt Medal 1882 - 1889.

A very good forum for the Victorian Wars from 1827- 1913 can be found at http://www.victorianwars.com

Hope this helps

Regards
Adrian

[becca_s]

thank you for all that information

I will definately try to conact them.

thankyou very much for your help, what website did you use for that census information? I've only been using freecen and church of latter day saints database so far and they haven't been that helpful yet.

I was wondering if perhaps you might also be able to help with a few queries about my great-grandfather William Charles Shaw, or if you might be able to point me in the right direction.

I have alot of information about William Charles Shaw b. 5th November 1881. He served 17 years in the British Army he wasnSouth Africa from 4th March 1903 to 8t August 1904 and he wentback in 24th December 1904 to 17th November 1908 he was also in the expeditinary frce tofrance from the 6th February 1916 to 29th July 1917, he went back to france 28th June 1918 to th 24th December 1918

He was a Sapper, with the Royal Engineers, his regiment number is 120948. I would love to know in particualr what William Charles Shaw did in South Africa, where he was based and where he was stationed in ww1, and also what his regiment was involved with in France

Any help is muh appreciated since we aleady have quite a bit of info we are just trying to fill in the missng pieces and find out what kind of work the Royal Engineers actually did and what part of South Africa they worked in his No. was 5373. Or if there is any place that might be able to give me that information.

Sorry about spelling, there seems to be some thing wrong with my keyboard.

thanks again

Rebecca

[apowell]

Hi,

I'll gladly try and help you obtain further information on your relatives.

When you say you have heaps of information on William's war records from the Boer War and WWI can you post any details on dates and Battalions etc that may help us in our search.

The dates you've given for William's service in South Africa from 4th March 1903 to 8th August 1904 and the 24th December 1904 to 17th November 1908 would not cover the Boer War.The First Boer War was fought from 1880 to 1881 and the Second Boer War lasted longer,from 1899 and ended on 31st May 1902. I would assume from the dates William was stationed in South Africa was after the war and that he was part of the British garrison. If the dates are correct and William didn't serve in South Africa prior to 1903 I don't think he would have been entitled to any South African medals.

I consider this website the best for information on the Boer war http://www.angloboerwar.com

This website explains information on the South African medals http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britis ... a_1902.htm


I've found Willam C Shaw's Medal Index Card (First World war)
Name: Willam C Shaw
Regiment: RE
Regiment no: 120948
Rank: Sapper
Medals awarded:
Victory medal: roll RE/101B65 page 13741.
British medal: roll RE/101B65 page 13741.
Theatre of war first served in: Blank
Date of entry there in: Blank
Remarks: None

I'm afraid the medal index card doesn't give us much more details but the Victory and British medal roll indexes should tell us which part of the Royal Engineers William served with in France and from that information should give us an idea of his whereabouts while in France. The only problem is these medal rolls are kept at the National Archive in London and aren't available online.

Try this website for information on the museum and history of the Royal Engineers http://www.remuseum.org.uk and from this site you get an idea of the wide range of tasks carried out by them.

If you want I can post on a couple of website forums to try and get further information on your relatives war service and because we have Regimental numbers it helps our search. I will wait for your permission before doing that.

I found William Shaw's census records on a pay for view wesite but to be honest they're all the same. I forgot to mention that William's occupation prior to joining the army was a rock splitter. I think that's what it reads but no idea what that is but I assume breaking stones maybe in a quarry? Sounds a tough job and that may explain why he joined up so young.

Kind regards
Adrian

[becca_s]

Thanks again, Adrian.

Yes, I think you are right, William Charles Shaw b.1881, was not in the 1st Boer War. He was a part of the British Garrison in South Africa - at the moment I would be interested to know where he was based during his time in South Africa if it's at all possible to find that out.

In 1903 he was a part of the Royal Dragoons, 7th Dragoon Guards under Regimental number 6450. In 1904 he transferred to the 4th Dragoon Guards under Regimental No 5284. Although his regimental number is 120948, it was fomerly 5373, 6450, and 5284.

Yes, he was a Rock Splitter, and at later dates was listed as a Collier so yes, I think that his work would have involved mines and quarries. In WW1 he was a part of the Royal Engineers Tunnelling Companies 171st Tunnelling Company and 178th Tunnelling Company. It would be good to know where he was stationed and what action he was involved in. I know he was exposed to mustard gas, and lost a great deal of lung capacity.

As for posting at other websites, sure, that would be great, you have my permission to post it. We are also trying to get more information about William Shaw b. 1858, over the weekend I will draft a letter to the people you recommended about it but if you happen to come across any information that would be great. I think I have found a death certificate for a William Shaw born around 1857/58 who died 1882 registered in Lambeth, London which is where I am sure that the family were living in that area because William Charles Shaw's birth was registered in Lambeth 1881 too. So, if that's him and I order the death cert then I will know how he died and it might be unconnected to the military.

I see you are from Finland - I have some relatives over on that side of the world too, in Estonia that it is where my maternal grandmother comes from.

Thankyou very much for all your help.

[apowell]

Hi Rebecca,

Wow you have done your research and with the information you've collected I should be able to obtain lots of information for you (exciting stuff ).

I need to go to work now but I'll leave you with this information and I'll get stuck into finding out lots more for you.

The history of the Tunnelling Companies RE

171st Tunnelling Company Formed of a small number of specially enlisted miners, with troops selected from the Monmouthshire Siege Company,RE. First employed in March 1915 in the Hill 60/Bluff areas at Ypres. Moved to Ploegsteert in July 1915 and commenced mining operations near St Yves. April 1916 saw a move to the Spanbroekmolen/Douve sector facing the Messines ridge. Forced to move from camp at Boeschepe in April 1918, when the enemy broke through the Lys positions and were then put on duties that included digging and wiring trenches over a long distance from Reninghelst to near St Omer.

178th Tunnelling Company On formation, moved to the Fricourt sector of the Somme. Moved up to try to mine enemy positions in High Wood, as the advance progressed in July 1916. In March 1918, the Company was spread in Fins, Gouzeaucourt and Heudicourt, when the enemy bombardment struck these places. After this the Company was engaged in Tortille bridge demolition, and other defensive activities.


Spanbroekmolen/Douve sector facing the Messines ridge
Prepared for the battle of Messines (7th-14th June 1917), the mine took 171 Tunnelling Company R.E. a year to excavate. Just before the battle was due to commence, German artillery fire destroyed the passage to the charge causing considerable doubt as to whether or not the mine could be blown. Working frantically day and night the miners dug a second gallery, only completing the work a day before the British attack was due to begin. Nevertheless there was still a doubt that the charge could be exploded and the infantry of the 36th (Ulster) Division were told not to wait if the mine failed to explode. The mine exploded 15 seconds late but although the force of the explosion flung some men to the ground, as they traversed No Man's Land there were no casualties. The Germans had suspected that the British were mining in this area and had actually raided the trenches without discovering the mine shaft. The Royal Engineers sign "Deep Well – Keep Out" apparently sufficed to keep the existence of the mine a secret.

It looks like William was involved in the above a famous incident during the war check out this site and the information on The Spanbroekmolen Mine.

greatwar.co.uk/ypres-salient/memorial-spanbroekmolen-pool-of-peace.htm

I'll be in touch with I hope lots more information.

ps
I'm English but married to a Finn living in Helsinki.

pitää huolta
Adrian

[becca_s]

thanks, Adrian. I appreciate all the info

So, do you have a particular interest in the war? You have alot of knowledge about it.

thanks

[apowell]

Hi,

I wouldn't class myself an expert but I've always had a passion for history from a very young age and would always be at the library attempting to get First World War books from the adult section (I would've been around 11 years old). The Librarian would say you don't want these books and I would explain I needed them to research the Somme or Mons battlefields etc. He/she would look at me and stamp them .

I just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotton you and information on William C Shaw but I've posted on some forums and I'm waiting for replys.

Do you know the dates William was in the 171st Tunnelling Company and 178th Tunnelling Company during the war because if you did we would know 100% where and what William was doing.

The Regiment's war diaries would be the next step to look at and these are kept at the Nation Archive with some of them are available to download on line. These diaries were written by serving officers and outlined what the Regiment was doing on a day to day basis.

Regards
Adrian

[becca_s]

Hi Adrian,

I've been so busy over the last few days that I haven't even checked the thread....

Sure, I know that during ww1 William Charles was in and out of hospital.

He was posted in the Expeditionary Force in France on the 5th of February 1916. He was in hospital on 11 March to the 18th 1916 and back in hospital on 8 April on April 21 1916 he was based at Ripon Depot.
He was in France again on the 13th of August 1916 joining his unit, 178 Company, on 10 September. He was back in hospital in July 1917, and returned to France in July 1918 to join 171 Tunnelling company. He returned home in December 1918 and was transferred to Z class Army Reserve on 22 January 1919.
So it seems that he did not spend much time with the tunnelling companies and experienced alot of illness.
Hope that is of some help, don't worry if there's no information out there
thanks for your help, Rebecca

[apowell]

Hi,

I've managed to find out the whereabouts of the 4th Dragoon Guards in South Africa.

4th Dragoon Guards went from Muttra in India to Middelberg cavalry camp in SA in Oct 1904 and left for England in Oct 1908.

If you google Middelberg cavalry camp in SA in Oct 1904 on the internet it gives you some information. It seems we were right in thinking they were stationed there for routine duties.

I'm not able to find anymore information but hoped what we've found helped and good luck in your future research.

Kind regards
Adrian

[becca_s]

Thankyou Adrian!

Rebecca

[becca_s]

Hello again,

I have been doing more research on William Shaw B. 1857, Lanarkshire - and found out that he died 1882. I have been trying to trace him back into scotland with no luck - I have searched through all the records on Scotlands people with no matches to his date of birth and the name that he gives his father in Marriage cert.

How would I be able to find more information and details about him from his army records. Would I need someone to look him up in Kew? How would I be able to find his regiment number etc?

Also, Adrian if you are reading ... would you know if William Charles Shaw b. 1881 would be entitled to any more medals - we have the two that are mentioned on the Medal Roll, but my dad thinks that he might be entitled to one from his time in South Africa - do you think that this would be true?

Rebecca

[apowell]

Hi Becca,

It's nice to hear from you again and I hope you're well

If the information you gave about William serving in South Africa from 1903 - 1904 is correct then he would not have been entitled to either the Queens or Kings South African Medals.

Please see below for the medal entitlement criteria:

The Queen's South Africa Medal or QSA ‎was awarded to military personnel who served in the Boer War in South Africa between 11 October 1899 and 31 May 1902.

The King's South Africa Medal or KSA was awarded to all troops who served in the Boer War in South Africa on or after 1 January 1902, and completed 18 months service before 1 June 1902. The medal was not issued alone but always with the Queen's South Africa Medal or QSA. The KSA was awarded only to those troops who fought in 1902, and who had served for 18 months. Service did not have to be continuous, but even with continuous service the recipient would have had to serve from December 1900 to have 18 months service before the war ended in May 1902 (and commencing before the death of Queen Victoria on 22 January 1901).

Regards
Adrian

[becca_s]

Thanks for the reply Adrian, that clears things up.

thanks for all your help, Rebecca