First World War information

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Re: First World War information

Postby Silver surfer » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:29 pm

Thanks so much Adrian. Anyone can see you are really into the subject, As for Howard, he learned to ride a horse in WW1 and when he was demobbed he looked after the local Dr Beasleys horse, which was said to have breathing problems and had a tube inserted in his neck (the horse that is).

You'll be regretting you offered look ups. I have a couple of others. Samuel William Hughes. I have his medal index card. 9th Bttn Worcs,20608 and the CWG memorial but any extras welcome. Also his brother Emanuel 19290 9th Bttn. but no other info except his death date 5 April 1916 at Bazra.

It would great to get a bit more info as I have just written my 2nd family history book on the Hughes' line. (For family members only :wink: )
Researching Foley, Burley, Dean, Danks, Smith, Pugh, Hughes, Shakespeare.
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Re: First World War information

Postby peterd » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:43 pm

thanks a lot adrian
A person should have an opinion on everything, It becomes tact whether you reveal that opinion or not.

http://www.deneview.co.uk/
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Re: First World War information

Postby apowell » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:01 am

Hi Silver surfer,

These service records are like gold dust but with 60% of them going up in flames during the Blitz you're very lucky to get the records you're looking for. I'm afraid both Emanuel and Samuel's records didn't suvive (I've searched and searched) :( . I've had the same problem with most of my relatives' service records never suvived the Blitz and it really limits the research you can do. The Medal Index Cards (MIC) were stored in a different building during the Blitz and 99% of them suvived. Oh well all is not lost because I've found both Medal Index Cards (MIC) so maybe I'm able to give you a little more information:

Name: Samuel Hughes
Rank: Private
Regiment: 9th Bn Worcester Regiment
Regiment No: 20608
Medal entitlement: British Medal, Victory Medal Roll. L/102/B15 Page.3359. Star (1915) Medal Roll. L/5B Page.103
Theatre of war first entry: 2b Balkans (Gallipoli)
Date of first entry: 27/08/15
Date of Death: K I A

Name: Emanuel Hughes
Rank: Private
Regiment: 9th Bn Worcester Regiment
Regiment No: 19290
Medal entitlement: British Medal, Victory Medal Roll. L/102/B15 Page.3345. Star (1915) Medal Roll. L/5B Page.100
Theatre of war first entry: 2b Balkans (Gallipoli)
Date of first entry: 09/09/15
Date of Death: K I A

Worcester Regiment
9th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Worcester in August 1914 as part of K1 and attached to 39th Brigade in 13th (Western) Division. Moved to Tidworth but by January 1915 was in billets in Basingstoke. Moved to Blackdown (Aldershot) in February 1915.
Sailed from Avonmouth in June 1915 and landed on Gallipoli next month.
January 1916 : Division evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt.
July 1918 : Brigade transferred to North Persia Force.

The 9th Battalion served with the 13th Division, 39th Brigade

13th Western Division Major engagements
Gallipoli
Battle of Sari Bair. 6-10 Aug 1915.
Russell’s Top. 7 Aug 1915.
Hill 60. 21 Aug and 27-28 Aug 1915.
Evacuation of Suvla. 19-20 Dec 1915.
Last Turkish attack at Helles. 7 Jan 1916.
Evacuation of Helles. 7-8 Jan 1916.

Egypt
No major action (Garrison duty at the Suez canal)

Mesopotamia
Capture of Hanna and Fallahiya. 5 Apr 1916.

Samuel Hughes wasn't long at Gallipoli 27th August 1915 before he was sadly killed 9th October 1915 (no major engagement).
Emanuel Hughes arrived at Gallipoli 9th September 1915 and suvived only to be sadly killed at the battle at Hanna and Fallahiya. 5th April 1916.

I strongly recommend you visit the Worcester Regiment museum website http://www.worcestershireregiment.com in my opinion this is the best Regimental website available and packed full of interesting information and stories.There is an interesting piece on a Private soldier's experience at Gallipoli which would have been what Samuel and Emanuel would have experienced.

They also keep comprehensive records of servicemen and it's quite possible they will have information on Samuel and Emanuel service history:
The Worcestershire Regimental Archives hold extensive records and other material which could help anyone researching their ancestors who served with the regiment. They also provide advise on how to seek further information.

The search fee is £12 (non-refundable) I would write first requesting what information they have on your two relatives and see what response you get before parting with any money. :wink: .
The Worcestershire Regiment Museum Trust
Crookbarrow Road,
Worcester, WR5 2PA

Hope this helps
Adrian :grin:
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Re: First World War information

Postby Linda » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:32 pm

I would just like to say thank you to Adrian for all his help regarding the search for my grandfather's service records. He very kindly offered to help and has given me lots of information about my Grandfather and what he did during the war years.
A thousand thanks Adrian, I think it's great that you take the time to help! :P :P :P
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Re: First World War information

Postby Northern Lass » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:56 pm

Adrian you truly are an asset to this site
Thank you for taking the time to do all this for people
:wink:
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Re: First World War information

Postby Silver surfer » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:46 pm

May I add my grateful thanks? ta :grin:
Researching Foley, Burley, Dean, Danks, Smith, Pugh, Hughes, Shakespeare.
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Re: First World War information

Postby apowell » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:01 am

Hi everyone,

No problem I'm glad I've been able to help and the offer is always there anytime.

I enjoy searching and it keeps my mind active.

Regards
Adrian
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Re: First World War information

Postby Vikinghunter » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:43 pm

Hi Adrian

I've been kindly referred to you by Peterd.

My greast-grandfather's brother's son

Albert Axel MOLLER

was killed in action in WW1 and I'm not sure where I can get the death certificate from? GRO or the army authorities?

The info I have (sorry, collected the info but did'nt make a note of the sources....) is:

Name: MOLLER, Albert
Rank: Pte
Number: DE52 112656? (this is a bit difficult to decipher)
Unit: R.A.S.C.
Year: 1918
Vol: M1
Page: 353

Other info I have (again did'nt make note of source)
Albert Moller
Private
Service No. M2/112656
Death: 19-10-1918 (ironically only a mere month away from Armstice Day)
Army Service Corps
Grave: Panel 5 Column 2
Tehran Memorial (Ottoman Empire?)
Unit text 1013th M.T. Coy
Commonwealth War Dead
Victory Roll Rase/107 B 76
Page 7738
remark: died
British Army WW1 Medal Rolls Index Cards 1914-1920 M

Thanks

David
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Re: First World War information

Postby apowell » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:32 pm

Hi David,

I'm sorry I haven't posted a reply sooner but I've been away from home until yesterday.

I will look into the information you've given and get back asap.

Kind regards
Adrian :grin:
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Re: First World War information

Postby apowell » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:37 am

Hi David,

I've checked and checked the service records for Albert Moller but with no luck. It looks like the records didn't survive the Blitz and must have been with the 60% that were destroyed. I'm afraid this is a blow because we can't pinpoint Albert's personnal details but all is not lost we have some information to go on.

I found his Medal Index Card (MIC)

Name: Albert Moller
Regiment: ASC (Army Service Corp)
Regiment no: DM2/112656
Rank: Private
Medals awarded:
Victory medal: roll Rasc/107B76 page 7738.
British medal: roll Rasc/107B76 page 7738.
Theatre of war first served in: Blank
Date of entry there in: Blank
Remarks: Died

UK, soldiers died abroad 1914-1918

Name: Albert Moller
Birth Place: Peckham, S.E.
Residence: London
Death Date: 19 Oct 1918
Enlistment Location: Peckham
Rank: Private
Regiment: Royal Army Service Corps
Number: M2/112656
Type of Casualty: Died
Theater of War: British Expeditionary Force


The medal card information and death entry is the same information you have already got but we can obtain a little more information:

We know that Albert didn't serve overseas until at least 1916 onwards because no 1915 star medal was awarded and the theatre of war and date of entry is blank which was only completed for service abroad prior to 1916. He enlisted at Peckham recruiting station so I think would have joined up not been conscripted.

The ASC or RASC (Royal was added in 1918) wasn't a fighting Corp but still played a very important role during the war. They transported all types of supplies to the frontline troops by every means possible and in every theatre of war. At the peak of the war the ASC numbered an incredible 10,547 officers and 315,334 men.

The organisation of the ASC
Horsed Transport Companies (including Companies in Divisional Trains and Reserve Parks)
435 Companies were used during the war to transport supplies, guns, ammunition and men.

Mechanical Transport Companies (including Companies in Divisional Supply Columns and Ammunition Parks, Companies attached to the heavy artillery, Omnibus Companies, Motor Ambulance Convoys, Bridging and Pontoon units and Workshops)
All types of motorised transport used to transport supplies, guns, ammunition and men. A Company initially comprised 5 officers and 337 other ranks of the ASC, looking after 45 3-ton lorries, 16 30-cwt lorries, 7 motor cycles, 2 cars and 4 assorted trucks for the workshop and stores of the Supply Column itself.

The Army Remounts Service (Companies involved in the provision of horses)
The ASC Remounts Service was responsible for the provisioning of horses and mules to all other army units. A Remount Squadron consisted of approximately 200 soldiers, who obtained and trained 500 horses.

The ASC Labour Companies
Labouring duties to support frontline troop but most were posted later in the war to the newly formed Labour Corp.

I would guess the reason Albert was posted to the ASC would have been one of the following but without his service records I can't be 100% sure.
1. Older recruit or not passed as fully fit for frontline service.
2. Trade or skill required by the ASC (maybe driver or mechanic).

We know Albert was in the 1013th M.T. Coy and someone kindly gave us the following information:
The 1013th MT Coy ASC was formed on the 11th October 1917 as Mesopotamia Army Troops. The unit was a supply column (Ford vans) for the Persian Lines of Communications. There is a War Diary available at the NA under WO 95/5006.

It's almost certain Albert was a lorry driver taking supplies for the frontline troops and given this I would say that he wasn't killed in direct action but died of disease, illness or accident. The main killers during the Mesopotamia campaign were cholera and dysentry but other horrible diseases were also rife. If he had been killed in action it would give type of Casualty: Died of wounds or killed in action.

I would guess that prior to embarking for Persia Albert would have been based in the UK but it's possible he could have seen service abroad prior to serving in Persia. If you check the medal rolls it may give some extra information but the problem is they're only kept at the Nation Archives at Kew so a pain to check. I wouldn't recommend you ordering Albert's death certificate which would be available via the GRO 'death overseas' because they give very little information.

I would recommend you obtain the war diary for the 1013th MT Coy because this was written by officers who served with the Company and can give detail day to day activities of the Companies movements etc (worth the £3.50). I don't think the War Diary is available to download online so you would need to order a copy at the NA under WO 95/5006. Check out http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for further details.

I recommend you look at http://www.mespot.net This site is made up of 300 pictures taken by Captain Charles (Chas) Henry Weaver during his service in Persia during The Great War. This was the time of the creation of Iraq out of "Southern Turkey". If you google World War One Campaign in Mesopotamia you get loads of other great websites.

Interestingly I found Medal Card Index for another A.A. Moller whos address is given:
11 Eaton Terrace, London, SW1

This chap seemed to have done well for himself joining in 1914 Private of the 28th London Regiment and ending the war Captain. Just wondering could he be a relative?

I hope this helps David but without Albert's service records it has made it alot harder to confim details.

Any questions please feel free to ask.

Regards
Adrian :grin:
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Re: First World War information

Postby jtward » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:56 pm

HI Adrian,
I am trying to get information on where and when my father served in Ejypt during WW1, all the info that I have is his discharge papers to wit:
Documentation: Character certificate of no.235251
Serial number 13906; Ward, Jack T.,
Rank of private
Corps from which discharged:1/5th battalion T F, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, (Rgtl. f.s.235251) Also served during this engagement with the Bedfordshire Regiment
“Disembodied” on demobalization on 24, march, 1919
Discharged on 31, march 1920, having served the colors for 4 years. 170 days
Any help would be MOST appreciated
Jack T. Ward Jr.
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Re: First World War information

Postby apowell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:21 pm

Hi Jack,

Welcome to the forum and it'll be a pleasure to help you.

I've already found Jack's Medal Index Card but have you any information on his home address, wife's name etc. This will help me search the other records because they're a lot of Jack Wards listed. The service records are not complete yet because they have only listed on line the surnames A-N but the pension records are complete so I can check thoses for you.

I'm afraid 60% of the records were destroyed during the Blitz so it's going to be the luck of the draw if Jack's records suvived (fingers crossed) but we still have some information to go on so I should be able to help regardless if we can find his records.

Regards
Adrian
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Re: First World War information

Postby Vikinghunter » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:03 pm

Hi Adrian

Many thanks for the ton of information you've provided here re: Albert - very much appreciated.

You may have seen my other post where I said I contacted the British Embassy in Tehran and they replied almost straightaway with which I'm very pleased about.

Apparently they're going to send me a photo of his tombstone out there which I'm now eagerly waiting for.

Thanks again for your fantastic help.

Cheers

David
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Re: First World War information

Postby apowell » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:59 pm

Hi David,

That's smashing news about the photo and I'm glad I was able to help.

All the best.
Adrian
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Re: First World War information

Postby apowell » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:54 pm

HI Jack,

I've searched the pension records for any information on Jack T Ward but to no avail but the service records for the M-Z have not yet been transcribed on line. It's still possible Jack's service records suvived but we'll need to wait until later this year when they are due to go on line.

I have found his MIC (Medal Index Card)
Name: Jack Ward
Regiment: 1/5th Royal Warwickshire
Regiment no: 235251
Rank: Private
Medals awarded:
Victory medal: roll L/104B35 page 7406. AMENDED Victory Medal: roll A7581 (written in pencil)
British medal: roll L/104B35 page 7406.
Theatre of war first served in: Blank
Date of entry there in: Blank
Remarks: 4/1/22 (written in pencil)

It looks to me that Jack had to return his Victory medal to be updated or amended 4th January 1922 because of the remarks completed on his MIC in pencil.

I'm confused on how you got the information that Jack served in Egypt during the war. I'm not saying he didn't but the information I've found doesn't back this up. I know you mentioned he served with the Befordshire Regiment but I think this posting must have been in the UK because the Bedfordshire Regiment isn't mentioned on his MIC (Medal Index Card). If a soldier served overseas with different Regiments during the war they should all be included on his MIC with his different Regimental No. but mistakes were made. However I've also searched for anyother Jack Ward MIC with the Bedfordshire Regiment and couldn't find any?

The Regimental history of the 1/5th Warwickshire Regiment doesn't state that the 1/5th every saw service in Egypt during the Great war. (found online)

The Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Battalions of the Territorial Force
1/5th Battalion
August 1914 : in Thorp Street, Birmingham. Part of Warwickshire Brigade, South Midland Division.
Landed at Le Havre 22 March 1915.
13 May 1915 : became 143rd Brigade, 48th (South Midland) Division.
Moved to Italy with the Division in November 1917.

If his discharge papers stated he'd served over 4 years from 1919 he must have enlisted during late 1915 and I would say that Jack saw service from 1916 onwards in France and Italy with the 143rd Brigade, 48th (South Midland) Division.

48th (South Midland) Division.
Battles involved

Somme Offensive
Battle of Albert, 1 - 13 July 1916 The Division held the line between the 56th (London) and the 31st Divisions, both of which were heavily engaged at Gommecourt and Serre respectively on 1 July 1916. Two of the Warwickshire battalions of the Division attacked on that day and suffered heavy casualties in assaulting the Quadrilateral (Heidenkopf)).
Battle of Bazentin (or the Bazentin Ridge), 14 - 17 July 1916 48th (South Midland) Division captured Ovillers on 16 July
Battle of Pozieres, 23 July - 3 September 1916 (took part in fighting for Mouquet Farm)
Battle of the Ancre, 13 - 18 November 1916

Third Battle of Ypres
Battle of Langemarck, 16 - 18 August 1917
Battle of the Menin Road, 20 - 25 September 1917
Battle of Polygon Wood, 26 September - 3 October 1917
Battle of Broodseinde, 4 October 1917
Battle of Poelcapelle, 9 October 1917

The 48th (South Midland) Division had moved to Italy by the 1st December 1917 and stayed there on active service until the wars end.

48th (South Midland) Division.
Battles involved
The fighting on the Asiago Plateau (15-16 June 1918)
The Battle of the Vittoria Veneto (1-4 November 1918) but in the Val d'Assa rather than the Vittoria Veneto itself.
The Division had the distinction on 3 November of surrounding and capturing the commender of the Austrian III Corps (General von Ritter-Romer), three Divisional commanders and about 14 battalions.

Without Jack's service history I'm unable to pinpoint when he went overseas and what major engagements he fought in but for sure the 1/5th Warwickshire's saw lots of action. I've no idea about Egypt and could have missed some information sadly without those records it's hard to be 100% sure.

Maybe an idea to contact the regimental museum http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk for further information.

I hope this helps
Adrian
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