Lye and Wollescote

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Lye and Wollescote

Postby Neville Bastable » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:18 pm

Lye Waste - the truth !

Lye Waste was a sloping piece of land (difficult to farm) settled in the 17th Century mainly by Irish immigrants ( my opinion, others may differ ), building cob ( dried mud ) huts to live in which faced in all directions. It was mid way between Halesowen and Stourbridge and about half a mile from another small settlement of the more usual kind described as The Lye ( still called that by oldies like me )
Lurid stories about the people who lived there have been handed down to us written by outsiders who I doubt ever visited the place. The people were religion hating, uncivilized, primitive beings it was claimed.
Speaking as a descendant of many of these people, the records show that by the 18th Century, hundreds of baptisms. marriages etc being carried out at the then parish church of St Mary’s, Oldswinford. Either they became civilized very quickly or the the situation may have become a mite exaggerated.
Mind you my old grandfather born1877 who married a girl from there once described it to me “as the last place God made”. Mud City he called it. The last of the mud houses was demolished I think in the 1930’s.
Nail making became the staple trade of the settlement in which my ancestores were involved.
Comments on the foregoing from any students of the area would be welcome.
I hope to add more postings myself on this Topic in due course.
Neville Bastable.
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Re: Lye Waste - the truth !

Postby Margarett » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:09 am

Hi Neville,
I also have ancestors who came from Lye Waste. (Eades, Farmer, Egginson) and were baptised and married at St Mary's, Oldswinford. I remember going to the Dudley record office, years ago when it was at Dudley town centre (proper archive, wood panelling), and doing some research on my lot. At the time I thought what an incredibly densely populated place it was for a small area. I made a note that every other family seemed to be called Pardoe!! Not sure about the Irish immigrants though, mine seem to be English through and through, although I haven't got back as far as 17th.c on those lines!
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Re: Lye Waste - the truth !

Postby Neville Bastable » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:38 pm

Hello Margaret,
Many thanks for your response.I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the names you have for The Waste but as you say it was quite a crowded community. As regards Pardoe it is and was a very common name in the area. My 4 times greatgrandmother was Anne Pardoe.
Reference origins apart from a few Irish type names my main reasoning was based on the fact that the mud homes they built were of a similar pattern I believe to ones in Ireland.
I have heard over the years many theories over the years of the origins of the settlers from gypsies to civil war refugees.
You pays your money and takes your choice. My earliest ancestor recorded at St Mary's Oldswinford is John Bingham marrying Mary Spencer on 12th June 1687.
All this early Bingham research was done by another family member. I cannot claim credit. I have more knowledge of the later generations of which I hope to speak in due course on this Topic.
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Re: Lye Waste - the truth !

Postby Neville Bastable » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:46 am

Thankyou Northern Lass and Mallosa for your kind words.
Perhaps I might return to my family. My greatgrandfather Zenas Bingham (1852-1933) was a horsenail maker like his father Joseph (1815-1880).
A horse nail required a greater skill in the making compared with an ordinary nail. Although born on the Waste, Joseph eventually moved his family down to Beefeaters Field where there were “proper” houses and then to Dark Lane (since renamed Chapel Street). When he married Zenas lived the other side of the Waste in Brook Street again in a conventional Victorian house, which was where my grandmother was born.
Beefeaters Field got its name we are told because at one time a local man grazed and fattened up a bullock in a field there to provide meat for his family and friends. The field was where Albert Street is now.
I confidently mention these streets but I don’t know whether they are all still there as I haven’t visited the area for many years. I understand there have been lots of changes. Perhaps any members from the Lye would like to tell me.
Can I be permitted to mention a couple of other popular Lye names. My grandmother’s cousin Syrella married Thomas Handy. They lived at Beefeaters Field and their daughter also named Syrella married Jesse Chance in 1899.
I hope members have found this interesting.
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Re: Lye Waste - the truth !

Postby linell » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:35 pm

Pardoe's from Old Swinford Poor Law Settlements:-

Sarah Pardoe entry 124 recorded 1761 Removed from Old Swinford to Ambelcote. Widow of Joseph with four children Elizabeth 1746, Martha 1748, Joseph 1752, Thomas 1756, found begging in Newington Surrey.

Richare Pardoe Nailer entry 161 recorded 1770 from St Chad Shrewsbury with Ann (late Griffiths) Widow and son George born 1765.

Joseph Pardoe entry 183 recorded 1773, Vagabond from Whistons Worcs to Old Swinford.

Joseph Pardoe entry 135 recorded 1773 Vagabond born at Old Swinford son of Wm Pardoe Baker removal order.

Thomas Pardoe entry 143 recorded 1780 Nailer born Old Swinford 1734 son of Joseph Pardoe, husband of Ann whom he Married at Upper Arley in 1764, and father of Hannah born 1765, Sarah born 1768, Elizabeth born 1771, Mary born 1776, Thomas born 1780.

Ann Pardoe born out of wedlock 1764 to Mary Pardoe removed from Old Swinford to Stourbridge entry 168 recorded in 1771.

John Pardoe Taylor (Tailor) born at Clent entry 93 recorded 1768 son of Thomas Pardoe of Clent, husband of Mary and father of boy born 1764 and two girls born 1762 and 1766, apprenticed to Wm Perry Taylor of Clent.
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Re: Lye Waste - the truth !

Postby linell » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:40 pm

A couple of Bingham Entries for Neville:-

Entry 145 1714 John Westwood was Apprenticed to John Bingham Nayler from Stourbridge until the age of 24.

Entry 631 1794 John Bingham born 1786 was Apprenticed to Samuel Moor Nailer from Old Swinford until the age of 21.
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How Ancient is Lye?

Postby linell » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:24 pm

HOW ANCIENT IS LYE?

From Nash’s History of Worcestershire:- In the year 1699 an accurate survey of the Parish of Old Swinford was taken. The Land was valued at £388.14s 4d – besides 9 Houses on the Waste.

Wollescote Hamlet valued at £221. 12s 4d – besides 36 houses on the Waste.

The Village of Lye derived its name from the Saxon word Ley, signifying a Farm consisting of pasture ground, and it was so called in old writings and in County Histories. Up to 1650 this common or waste had only a few scattered Cottages. On the open Waste a number of Mud Huts were built by the Nailmakers around 1750. The Enclosure Act of 1781 converted the land thus seized by the Nailmakers into Freeholds and by 1790 The Lye and The Waste was the most populous part of the Parish of Old Swinford and contained some two thousand inhabitants.

William Scott in ‘A History of Stourbridge’ published in 1832 states that Hungarian Glassmakers settled in the Waste.

‘The Place Name of Worcestershire’ states that Lye was mentioned in the subsidy Rolls of 1275 and 1327 and also in Wills of 1550 and 1625.

‘Hereford and Worcester Record Office’ possess a Lye Church District Plan covering the years 1730 – 1897.

We would concede that the word ‘Hamlet’ contained in the Nash reference and attributed to Lye in 1699 indicates an established settlement, but consider that the 103 houses on The Waste far out-numbered any other group of dwellings in the vicinity. In that context ‘103 houses’ constitutes the height of overcrowding, in contemporary terms. The Mud City must have been a vastly larger settlement than Nash’s Hamlet.

On the Map of 1625 Lye is referred to as Ye Lye. Even today it is referred to as ‘The Lye,’ anciently this could be interpreted as a reference to a Meadow rather than ‘The Hamlet’ of Lye.

However these pros and cons are hardly worth pursuing, they depend too much on individual interpretation as to what constitutes a Hamlet or a Village. That Lye Waste was settled from an early period is not in dispute. There is a reference to a Hungarian Glass-Worker who arrived in 1556 after fleeing his native land owing to persecution. His name was Henzil Henzey and after noting that the local Clay was similar to that of the Glass Making province of Lorraine, he established a small Glass and Pottery House on Hungary Hill (which was so named after him.)
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Postby Neville Bastable » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:32 pm

Many thanks Linell for the Pardoe info and for all your research on the Waste.
I thought members may be interested in how organized religion came to the Waste. In the late 1700’s James Scott, minister from Park Lane Presbyterian Chapel a couple of miles away in Netherend, Cradley started holding services in houses on the Waste eventually opening a Chapel there in I think 1806. It is true I believe there was initially some resistance to this but in the course of time a Congregational Chapel was built in the area, followed by a Weslyan Methodist Chapel and then of course a breakaway Primitive Methodist Chapel following the usual non conformist progression to which we are accustomed in the Black Country and elsewhere.
An Anglican Parish Church was built mid distance between Lye Cross and the Waste in 1813 to serve both communities and was opened a few years later.
Can I complete this posting by repeating a piece reported to have been written by a Rev. Robertson in 1866 He said of the area “ the mud huts were very much in evidence and the crowding was extraordinary. Beershops abounded, there being 53 for a population of 7000. The people were mostly related to one another. They kept themselves to themselves and saw no society beyond that of their immediate neighbours in thev poor looking back streets and courts.”
By this time my great grandfather Zenas Bingham’s family had moved a bit lower down and the girl he married came from the other side of town on the Lye/Quarry Bank border.
If they hadn’t have moved maybe I wouldn’t be me if you see what I mean.
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Lye

Postby FarSide » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:26 am

I sent my Dad your article, I knew he'd enjoy it, he said he and his sister used to play there as a kid, (don't know how true this is) he also said the 'hill billies in the south of the states' pretty much originated from the this area.
I live in my own little world. But it's ok....they know me here!
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Lye's First Wesleyan Chapel

Postby linell » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:33 pm

Lye's First Wesleyan Chapel

This is the story of how Mr and Mrs James Bowater, devoted Wesleyan Methodists, opened up their home at Parkside Cradley for Prayer Meetings. Methodism played a prominent part in the religious life of the ancient Township of Cradley. The three great Methodist Societies, the Wesleyans, the Primitive, and the United Methodists were well represented. The Founder of Methodism, the Rev John Wesley visited Cradley on March 19th 1770, and evidently met with a good reception for he relates in his journal that the 'Multitude of people obliged me to stand abroad, although the wind whistled round my head

By 1818, Mr and Mrs Bowater became anxious as to the spiritual darkness of The Lye. One Friday whilst walking to Market at Stourbridge through The Lye, Mrs Bowater met a young woman, formally a Member of the Cradley Class held at the Bowater’s home. Mrs Bowater told the young woman her great desire to do something for the people of Lye, and the young woman agreed to open her house for a prayer meeting, if Mr and Mrs Bowater would attend. A night was arranged, but none of the Friends from Cradley were willing to accompany this Godly pair on their new mission, so they went alone.

There were present at that meeting, Mrs Baker the young woman mentioned, her mother in law, Mr J Baker, Jack Ketch the hangman for Worcester, a little boy with a dog, this was the first religious meeting held in Lye by the Wesleyan Methodists.

The next week more people came along, and the house was crowded even to the stairs, and many people were outside vexed that they could not enter, disturbed those within. When the meeting was over and the door opened, the crowd rushed forward, and Mr Bowater became alarmed, but the crowd made way and the praying band passed through unhurt. Very soon, souls were saved and a Class was formed, and Mr Bowater was appointed Leader.

Soon after the Stourbridge Friends began a prayer meeting at the other end of Lye, and here too a Class was formed. These gatherings grew so large that it became necessary to secure a permanent place for the Service. A Club Room over a Carpenters Shop was hired, to which both prayer meetings were taken, but the Carpenter below, who evidently resented the intrusion, often disturbed the worship.

One night, during a preaching Service all seemed quiet, and the little congregation rejoiced that the Carpenter was away, but the Service had not proceeded far before the whole floor gave way and the worshippers were precipitated. into the workshop below, except those on the benches which were fastened to the wall, and from them the floor had departed. The miserable man who occupied the Carpenters Shop was later seen walking up and down outside, and he was heard to say, he hoped none would think he had had a hand in the matter. When the floor joists were later examined, it was found that they had all been sawn through, the poor fellow stricken with remorse left the neighbourhood soon after. It was this circumstance, which lead to the erection of a Chapel on the Waste Bank. It was opened in September 1822 and occupied by the Wesleyan Methodists. The first Trustee’s were George Deeley, Edward Robins the Elder, Edward Robins the Younger, Thomas Yardley, Thomas Hill, Charles Wooldridge, John Deeley, George Hartshorn, Samuel Smith, William Richards and John Aston.
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Lye

Postby Margarett » Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:13 am

How interesting, and what a scandal! Linell, do you think the Hungarian glassmaker was the first to make glass in the area? Was he the founder of the Stourbridge glass industry?
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Postby Neville Bastable » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:39 pm

Many thanks Linell for details of the founding of the Weslyan Methodists. Responding to other members, of the 50 pubs my very first job at 16 was in one of those, no longer a pub though having been converted for industrial use.
Billy the Kid, I don’t know, but I do remember an article in the Black Country Bugle describing how John Wesley Harding, a gun fighter in the old West claimed his “folks” came from the English Midlands. There certainly were Hardings in the Lye, my 4 times grandfather being one of them, William Harding by name.
Quoting the Bugle again I remember an article relating the story of Waste people emigrating to the USA and mention was made I think the Appalachians (Hill Billy country I believe). There was a photo of an old timer whose name was I think Creed Taylor. There were definitely a number of Taylors on the Waste.
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Lye

Postby linell » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:21 am

Margarett wrote:How interesting, and what a scandal! Linell, do you think the Hungarian glassmaker was the first to make glass in the area? Was he the founder of the Stourbridge glass industry?
Margaret


I suppose he must have been Margaret?? I do remember Hungary Hill, shall forever associate that with Henzey now, the name Henzey must have caught on, I do see it now and again on the Census. Best Wishes from Linell.
Last edited by linell on Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lye

Postby linell » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:23 am

Neville Bastable wrote:Billy the Kid, I don’t know, but I do remember an article in the Black Country Bugle describing how John Wesley Harding, a gun fighter in the old West claimed his “folks” came from the English Midlands. There certainly were Hardings in the Lye, my 4 times grandfather being one of them, William Harding by name.
Quoting the Bugle again I remember an article relating the story of Waste people emigrating to the USA and mention was made I think the Appalachians (Hill Billy country I believe). There was a photo of an old timer whose name was I think Creed Taylor. There were definitely a number of Taylors on the Waste.
Neville Bastable


Yes that is the article I read Neville, am still searching for it, I have all the Bugles so have to go through each one. Best Wishes from Linell.
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Postby Neville Bastable » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:59 pm

Best of luck Linell. I have some old copies of the Bugle. I'll have a look through them.
Continuing the story, in the late 18th Century a major disruption occurred on Lye Waste. The Halesowen to Stourbridge Turnpike Road was cut right through the middle. There are stories that the Waste dwellers threw rocks at the coaches as they passed by, which may, of course, helped to create the impression of a wild, lawless people which is what I am questioning. Under those cicumstances wouldn’t you have thrown rocks at the coaches?
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