Stay or not to stay

[Rob]

It's now June 8.The last post in The Snug was May 30th !!! If i was to vote on the EU Referendum i'd vote REMAIN !! Alas because i'm a non resident but still the proud holder of a British passport, i'm not allowed to vote.

[Jimmy]

I have already voted out.

[peterd]

me out too jimmy,

rob it was your choice to live outside the uk just like anyone else with a uk passport in the world, there not getting a vote if they've been gone more than 15 years too

[SRD]

Whilst I think this topic probably breaks the usual rules on what's acceptable in The Snug it's such an important decision I would ask the mods to let it run as long as it doesn't turn personal.

I'm In.

I think all the working people's benefits, things like minimum wages, holiday pay, maternity leave, the ability to move, work, holiday and live anywhere in the Community, as well as clean air, banning of environment damaging chemicals, control of GMOs so that our food isn't under the control of non-accountable multi-national companies etc. which are all things that the Outers have said they want to roll back on, outweigh the net cost disadvantages (about £200 a year per head of population which doesn't include the benefits that so many projects that have received EU funding give us, things like theatres, museums, flood defences etc.).
As far as sovereignty is concerned, whilst it is true that some of our laws, especially those that relate to how we deal with countries in the EU, do have to take into account the laws passed in Europe by representatives of all the member nations, the same would, and does, occur with our dealings with all of the nations of the world where we have no representation in the making of laws. So, if we want to send a product to the U.S.A. it has to conform to U.S. regulations (which is why we can't send Real Ale to the U.S. it has to be pasteurised).
On the immigration question, I'm just listening to an article on the radio that shows that immigration from outside the EU (over which we have control) was greater last year than immigration from the EU (over which we have limited control).

[Rob]

Eloquently put SRD. I wish i had a way with words like you !! We are on one line regarding the EU.

[Jimmy]

Are the so called experts who want to stay in, the same ones that said we were making a big mistake by not joining the euro.

[peterd]

SRD take a look at the Nation insurance no issued till year ending Sept 2015 tell a truer picture than gov figures and most of the law you mention we had or have better than EU standards

read the passage above this comes from .gov website

NI Number.jpg (58.54 KiB) Viewed 2533 times

these figures are for adults it doesn't count the children

government only count people who say there going to stay for 12 months or more at selected major airports the rest aren't counted also if your from Europe and get challenge by boarder official your more likely to say visiting family or on holiday if you don't have a job or place to go

our social network can't cope with the amount of people entering and all those Brits who have left have the right to return with there families as well

As far as EU funding goes the government and the EU have no money, its our own taxes were getting back and being told where to spend it

the house of commons library states up to 55% of our laws can come from the EU if you class everything that effects use

i for one like to remove the elected government at Westminster and not cede control to 28 appointed delegates to propose the laws and the way i am governed, my parent voted for a common market not a superstate the way were heading

[sparkstopper]

I'm with you Pete & Jimmy: OUT....OUT....OUT.

[dudleytaylor]

I want out , because the change I have seen in Evesham in the last ten years is beyond belief, we no longer see the Indian and Pakistani family's working in the fields ,they are now Polish . There is a street in Evesham now known has Pole Street. A nurse at my doctors has informed me that they (the surgery ) are overwhelmed by the amount of immigrants they now have , three thousand and rising. This is probably just the beginning ,and I am worried that it will get worse.

[grangers14]

I have chosen to stay in.
All very debatable depending on what you listen too...

[Jimmy]

I look at this way, hospital waiting times, places for your children at a school of your choice, there doesn't seem to be any plans to build more hospitals or schools.

[Jimmy]

Or even build more prisons.

[SRD]

Are the so called experts who want to stay in, the same ones that said we were making a big mistake by not joining the euro.

Not at all, there are some and some, but it has also been said that the mess the euro area is in might have been considerably lessened if Britain had been a major player, which would have benefited everyone, not just in the EU.
I appreciate that it's a double edged sword in this debate, but the UK does have considerable influence the world over but it also seems, from what I've heard, that governments the world over (excluding such regimes as Russia) generally consider that we have more influence in the EU than out. I feel that our international influence would be reduced if we pull out.

[SRD]

SRD take a look at the Nation insurance no issued till year ending Sept 2015 tell a truer picture than gov figures and most of the law you mention we had or have better than EU standards

NI Number.jpg

these figures are for adults it doesn't count the children

government only count people who say there going to stay for 12 months or more at selected major airports the rest aren't counted also if your from Europe and get challenge by boarder official your more likely to say visiting family or on holiday if you don't have a job or place to go

our social network can't cope with the amount of people entering and all those Brits who have left have the right to return with there families as well

As far as EU funding goes the government and the EU have no money, its our own taxes were getting back and being told where to spend it

the house of commons library states up to 55% of our laws can come from the EU if you class everything that effects use

i for one like to remove the elected government at Westminster and not cede control to 28 appointed delegates to propose the laws and the way i am governed, my parent voted for a common market not a superstate the way were heading

Firstly the NI figures are Civil Service figures, just like the one's I quoted. There was an excellent programme I listened to (and of course I can't perishin' find it) that explained why NI figures only tell part of the story, for instance they apply to all temporary workers, so if a major company needs a specialist for a few weeks they have to be registered but there is no way of removing them from the figures once they've gone back to where they came from, there is no de-registration.

If you're from Europe the border controls don't apply, full stop, you don't have to state the purpose of your visit at all, in exactly the same way that that when we travel to Europe we don't have to state the purpose of our visit, it's only if we apply for work that things like NI registration is required and most of that burden falls on the employer, in exactly the same way as when we apply for a new job in this country, we have to give our P60s or whatever the current bit of paper is called.

I don't disagree that our infrastructure is under pressure, but the main reason for that is that successive governments have failed to invest in it properly instead using some formulae plucked out of mid air (which has nothing to do with the EU) to justify the weird way that they attempt, and usually fail, to balance the books. Don't get me wrong, the EU is just as bad at this, but, In or Out, nothing will change there.

Regarding expat Brits, I'm not a lover of any kind of expat in principle (individuals are usually pretty nice people, much as everyone else is), if you want to live in another country then I think you should become a citizen of that country and put up with the downside as well as the up.

Without going into the philosophy of what money actually is, of course the EU has no money of its own, neither do shops, railways, power companies or any form of government be it Parish Council, County Council, Westminster or Brussels, it's all our money that we exchange for some kind of service, what on earth has that to do with whether we're In or Out?

As I understand it that quote from the House of Commons library is actually a quote from a speech made by an MP, I don't disagree with the notion that many of our laws are the result of non-UK influence, but many of those "EU" laws come from other external influences (things like the United Nations, the World Trade Organisation, the International Climate Change Forum etc.) all of which we have to abide by whether we're In or Out. An advantage of being In is that we have many other countries supporting the agreed EU position that we have helped to draft although that position may not be exactly what we might have wished, an advantage of being out is that we can pursue specific selfish benefits but from a much worse position without the support of all the other EU member States.

Your last point is probably your strongest argument, and one that it is impossible to argue against, based as it is on Patriotism and Nationalism. Back in 1975 I voted against joining the EEC (it was one of the first times I was able to vote), not only was I an anarchist who welcomed the destruction of Western Capitalist Imperialism which the linking of nations in a common cause would do nothing to assist but I also knew that those who were selling us the idea of European Market Integration as a simple trade community had a bigger project in mind, a community not unlike the U.S.A. which would have the strength to fight the U.S.A. (the strongest economic force of the time) at its own game. Since then the world has moved on, powerhouses have fallen and others risen but the challenges out there are greater than they've ever been, and I think that, despite all the downsides and they are numerous, we will do better overall In than Out.

[Jimmy]

SRD I think you are trying to hard to get people to vote your way, no one that I know will vote for in, but the only people I know are working class from the Midlands.