Kathleen Clifford

[Leop]

Hello my great grandmother was Kathleen Clifford born about 1879. I have her marriage certificate 25 Feb 1905 to Fred Howard both living in Bradford (her father is James Clifford still living) and can find her on 1901 census as a Boarder (stating her birth place as Sunderland) and on 1911 census married with a child Elizabeth. She died in 1918 in Bradford. I can't find any birth details or her on any census for 1881 1891.

I have got the 1921 census for her child Elizabeth who is living in Bradford with her aunt Mary Ann White (born 1891) presume was Clifford and Mary Ann's mother Elizabeth Clifford (born 1866) presumably Kathleen's mother too. I can't find an Elizabeth and James Clifford on any census or a marriage. I can find a Mary Ann Clifford born in 1891 on the gro to a mother maiden name Keelan but again have drawn blanks on this too. The dates would suggest Kathleen's mother was very young when she had her.

Any help appreciated.

[Jimmy]

What was James Clifford's occupation.?

[Leop]

There are 2 words the second one is Builder the first one hard to read but could be Ship?

[Jimmy]

I can't see a James Clifford in any of the census's connected to ship or builders.

[Leop]

I have had a magnifying glass on the certificate and am sure it does say ship builder, if his daughter was born in Sunderland I suppose that would be a ship building area. Thank you for checking I appreciate it.

[BC Wench]

This looks like some of the info you have for 1921

1921: Bradford, Yorks (West Riding)
Mary A White, 1891, Birth: Bradford, Yorks
Elizabeth Clifford, 1866, Birth: Bradford, Yorks
Elizabeth Howard, 1910, Birth: Bradford, Yorks

Could this be Mary Ann's marriage

Marriages Dec 1914 Bradford 9b 344
Frank C White & Mary A Clifford

Could this be Mary Ann Clifford in the 1911 Census

1911: Bradford Union Workhouse, Little Horton Lane, Bradford
Mary Ann Clifford, Inmate, 19, Single, Box Minder/Wool, Bradford, Yorks 1892

I'm presuming this is what you have on Kathleen in the 1901 Census

1901: 48 Sturges St., Eas Bowling, Bradford, Yorks
Michael McNalley, Head.Mar, 28, Wool Warehouseman 1873
Ellen McNalley, Wife, 26
William McNalley, Son, 3
Elizabeth McNalley, Dau, 1
Kathleen A Clifford, Boarder.S, 22, Wool Comber, Sunderland 1879
(Others born Bradford)

I've found this in the 1911 Census, I know that it's some way away from Bradford, but

1911: 25 Palmerston Road, Southampton
James Clifford, Head.Married, 57, Ships scaler/sealer, Harland & Wolf Worker at Docks, Southend (B: 1854)
Bessie Clifford, Wife.Married, 44, Christchurch (B: 1867)
Married: 18yrs Children born alive to present marriage: 0 (Marriage: 1893)

As it says "no children born to present marriage" I was wondering if Kathleen and Mary Ann were the illegitimate daughters of Elizabeth/Bessie, but put their father as James Clifford on their marriages.

The only marriage I can see of James Clifford & Bessie is this one and I can't find them together on any other census.

Marriages Dec 1898 Shepton M 5c 901
James Clifford & Bessie Rock

Something to think about.

[rockyfowler]

438 22 Nov 1898 St Peter`s Church Evercreech
James CLIFFORD 24 B Manager Of Soldiers Home Evercreech Father James Clifford Rural Postman
Bessie ROCK 23 S Evercreech Father James Rock Grocer & C
After Banns Both Signed
Wit; Harry James Rock / Annie Clifford

[BC Wench]

438 22 Nov 1898 St Peter`s Church Evercreech
James CLIFFORD 24 B Manager Of Soldiers Home Evercreech Father James Clifford Rural Postman
Bessie ROCK 23 S Evercreech Father James Rock Grocer & C
After Banns Both Signed
Wit; Harry James Rock / Annie Clifford

Thanks very much RF for that marriage. We can rule that marriage out as that James Clifford does go on to serve in the Army, with his wife Bessie (Wife of a Soldier) living with her parents Harry James & Sarah Rock in the 1901 census in Somerset.

Mmmm, so wonder where this James Clifford is as his occupation seems to fit.

1911: 25 Palmerston Road, Southampton
James Clifford, Head.Married, 57, Ships scaler/sealer, Harland & Wolf Worker at Docks, Southend B: 1854
Bessie Clifford, Wife.Married, 44, Christchurch B: 1867
Married: 18yrs Children born alive to present marriage 0 1893

[Leop]

Thank you that is all really useful. On the GRO Mary Ann Clifford's birth is there in Bradford mother maiden name Keelan so I am not sure that the Southend family fits. There is no birth for Kathleen and according the the 1921 census her mother Elizabeth would have only been 14/15 unless the dates are not recorded correctly. I assume Elizabeth and James did marry as she was Elizabeth Clifford on the 1921 census but maybe they weren't married until after Kathleen was born and that she wasn't Jame's child. Anything else you can find is appreciated.

[Jimmy]

1881. Evercreech, Somerset.
James Clifford 60. Post Rural Messenger. Batcombe, Somerset.
Anne Clifford 40. Ireland.
Silas J. Clifford 11.
Rhoda Clifford 10.
Tom Clifford 9.
James Clifford 6.
Frank Clifford 3.
Emma Clifford 1.

Overs born Evercreech, Somerset.

CLIFFORD, JAMES SMITH.
GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in SHEPTON MALLET Volume 05C Page 518.

Somerset Evercreech.
Marriage date 05 Oct 1867.
James CLIFFORD. 47. widower. Post Messenger. Evercreech. John CLIFFORD. Cordwainer.
Anne SMITH. 26. spinster. Sherborne. Frank SMITH. Shoemaker.
Witness 1 James ROLLINS.
Witness 2 Jane CRACK.
Notes Banns.

[Leop]

Thank you, I think I will send for Mary Ann Clifford's marriage certificate to Frank C White and see if James Clifford was on their as her father and if he is still alive and if he is still a ship builder. Kathleen Clifford was born in 1880 so I assume if Jame and Elizabeth did marry it was around then or after.

[BC Wench]

Thanks for looking Jimmy, but that James Clifford is the Soldier who went on to marry Bessie Rock.

Leop: If it was me, I would send off for the marriage certificate of Mary Ann Clifford as well. Even though Elizabeth went as her surname Clifford, she may never have married a James Clifford.

I had a similar situation where my husband's paternal great grandmother on her first marriage produced 2 children, her first husband died and then she cohabited (for over 20yrs I've never found a marriage) with my husband's great grandfather and they produced 2 children and always went with the surname of her second "husband" through various censuses, even on her death certificate and burial.

I did wonder with the surname Keelan (mother's maiden name on the birth certificate of Mary Ann), could there be an Irish connection, as on the 1901 census Kathleen is living with the McNalley family and following them back through the censuses, they originate from Ireland. May be I'm picking at straws here.

[Jimmy]

I think with a name like Kathleen the mother was possibly from Ireland.

[Leop]

Thank you that is useful I will send for it and see. I do think the Irish connection is a possibility I wonder if Kathleen's mother was very young and pregnant she could have been sent to England. I do appreciate the replies and will keep on looking.

[Jimmy]

Trying to see if this helps,

1901: 48 Sturges St., Eas Bowling, Bradford, Yorks
Michael McNalley, Head.Mar, 28, Wool Warehouseman 1873
Ellen McNalley, Wife, 26
William McNalley, Son, 3
Elizabeth McNalley, Dau, 1
Kathleen A Clifford, Boarder.S, 22, Wool Comber, Sunderland 1879
(Others born Bradford)

1881. 11 Micklegate, Selby, Yorkshire.
Hugh Flynn 33. Draper. Ireland.
Margaret Ann Flynn 33. Ireland.
Mary Flynn 6.
Michael John Flynn 4.
Joseph Edwd. Flynn 2.
Catherine A. Flynn 1.

FLYNN, MARY MCNULTY.
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in SELBY Volume 09C Page 746.

FLYNN, MICHAEL JOHN MCNULTY.
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in SELBY Volume 09C Page 786.

FLYNN, JOSEPH EDWARD MCNULTY.
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in SELBY Volume 09C Page 775.

FLYNN, CATHERINE MCNULTY .
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in SELBY Volume 09C Page 764.
.
FLYNN, HUGH MCNULTY.
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 425.